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262398 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
It's a think in the on internet. It's one of the many reasons mt to trust internet information because generally it's worth what you paid for it. I'm having that issue with the shovel / spade distinction I grew up thinking a spade was that shape you see in a deck of cards denoting spades. The shape of the blade facilitating the digging in compacted earth and rocks I figured a shovel was for moving looser materials like putting the dirt back in the hole For reasons I can't articulate I stumbled onto a web site that had it 180 degrees opposite. In disbelieve I started googling around. Seems that there are countless websites all repeating the same information that the spade is not spade shaped, but rater flat nosed. Now I turn to the ancient wisdom of the galootery Is this a case of rampant internet plagiarism and the ignorance of one overzealous content writer, or have I been wrong all these years? One may use a polled axe to drive the tent pegs or one may utilize one's boot heel to drive the little buggers. |
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262399 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Cliff wrote: > It's a think in the on internet. It's one of the many reasons mt to trust internet information because generally it's worth what you paid for it. > > I'm having that issue with the shovel / spade distinction > > > I grew up thinking a spade was that shape you see in a deck of cards denoting spades. The shape of the blade facilitating the digging in compacted earth and rocks > > I figured a shovel was for moving looser materials like putting the dirt back in the hole > > For reasons I can't articulate I stumbled onto a web site that had it 180 degrees opposite. In disbelieve I started googling around. Seems that there are countless websites all repeating the same information that the spade is not spade shaped, but rater flat nosed. > > > Now I turn to the ancient wisdom of the galootery > > Is this a case of rampant internet plagiarism and the ignorance of one overzealous content writer, or have I been wrong all these years? Spades vary. A lot. Just like billhooks and axes, by both region and nation. So do shovels. BugBear |
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262400 | Tim <tpendleton@g...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
I often look at a dictionary when a quick compare and contrast is in order. Dictionary.com sheds some light on the definitions in question. Tim Grey, overcast and rainy: Woo-Hoo, summer fun... |
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262401 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
> On Jun 5, 2017, at 07:17 , Cliff |
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262402 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:17 AM, Cliff |
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262403 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Obviously words have historic meaning and also legitimate meaning that has arrived later. In your case, here's how to know: 1. The playing cards, as you mentioned. 2. The modified word pairings. Compare how many times you've heard someone put a "flat" or "straight" modifier on the tool called "spade" vs the times you've heard "pointed" or "rounded" applied to same. If you've heard far more of the former, that tells you the normal unmodified usage refers to the latter. That's my opinion. I think the term usually referred to not simply the head shape but also to the shorter d-shaped handle. By now it's used legitimately either way. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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262404 | Erik Levin | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Having little of value to add to the discussion, I will, naturally, throw in my 1/12.5 bit... The usage I was brought up with is: Spade is a blade that is flatter and pointy for breaking up soil or sod, and maybe turning it, not for lifting it in quantity. It has no significant raised edge to impede cutting action When referring to a specific tool, shovel is squared or pointed at the end and has a raised edge to make lifting and throwing material easier, but cutting into tight material is tougher. The term also encompasses the other here (in the "a rectangle is a quadrilateral, a square is a rectangle" way) Scoop is next up in the raising of the edge, and generally has a full box edge around the perimeter to make lifting, carrying, and controlled throwing of larger quantities of loose material, like grain, coal, or gravel, easier This usage was pretty consistent amongst the locals growing up (New England), and also seems consistent where I am now (NJ). I have used all of the tools described professionally, as well as non-professionally, in the northeast US. Digging ditches is not one of my favourite things, nor hand ballasting railroad right of way, but one does what one must. *** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply address(es) may not match the originating address |
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262405 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
For 11 years starting at age 11 I worked at my uncle’s tree farm in northern Ohio. A spade was a subset of shovels and it had a blade that was longer than wide and a D - handle. That’s my uncle’s opinion. Ed Minch |
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262406 | Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
This 1926 Ames Shovel, Spade and Scoop catalog makes me realize that chisels are easy to categorize compared to shovels: http://stonehill-website.s3.amazonaws.com/files/resources/1926-ames-catalog.pdf Stonehill College has a vast archive related to the Ames Shovel empire: http://www.stonehill.edu/offices-services/archives/industrial- collections/ames-family-collection/who-were-the-ames/">http://www.stonehill.edu /offices-services/archives/industrial-collections/ames-family-collection/who- were-the-ames/ I visited a few years ago to read the correspondence of FL Ames, who for a while tinkered in woodworking tools, perhaps to diversify his portfolio. He bought the patent for Cook's patented bits which are all the rage again and owned chisel and auger makers Douglass Mfg. Co. (which became James Swan Mfg. Co.). Brian |
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262407 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
http://www.sowanddipity.com/a-shovel-and-a-spade/ The Oxford English Dictionary concurs. For serious evidence though look at the logo for Germany's Spaten brand beer. :-) Mike in Woodland |
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262408 | Adrian Jones <adrianjones747@c...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
My experience in the UK and US is that a spade is for digging. Always has a raised lip for pushing your foot down on it. Shovel is for moving stuff - snow, coal, etc, and no need for raised lip. Cheers |
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262409 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
On 2017-06-05 11:10 AM, Michael Blair wrote: > http://www.sowanddipity.com/a-shovel-and-a-spade/ > > The Oxford English Dictionary concurs. For serious evidence though look > at the logo for Germany's Spaten brand beer. :-) > > Mike in Woodland My reading of the OED online is that shovels are for shoving or shifting materials ( snow for example) , whereas spades are for digging. In other words, the name is reflects the function rather than the shape or the handle. This is generally the way ww tools are named too - think rip saw, mortise chisel, tack hammer etc. IME, good shovels are rectangular in shape, though a round-ended or pointy spoon-like spade can serve for shifting almost as well. When it comes to digging, I want a pointy spade to dig a hole, but a square-edged one to turn a garden bed. FWIW Don -- The harder they come, the bigger they fall - Ry Cooder |
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262410 | Chuck Taylor | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Gentle Galoots, Alvin Sellens' "Dictionary of American Hand Tools" has these definitions, accompanied by quite a few illustrations: Shovel: A handled tool with a broad hollowed-out blade used to lift or move loose material. Spade: A digging and separating tool capable of cutting action as it is pushed into the work. I knew there must be some reason why I acquired all those tool dictionaries. :-) -- Chuck Taylor north of Seattle |
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262411 | Dan Indrigo <dindrigo@r...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
On 2017-06-05 2:31 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: > On 2017-06-05 11:10 AM, Michael Blair wrote: >> http://www.sowanddipity.com/a-shovel-and-a-spade/ >> >> The Oxford English Dictionary concurs. For serious evidence though look >> at the logo for Germany's Spaten brand beer. :-) >> >> Mike in Woodland > > My reading of the OED online is that shovels are for shoving or > shifting materials ( snow for example) , whereas spades are for > digging. In other words, the name is reflects the function rather than > the shape or the handle. This is generally the way ww tools are named > too - think rip saw, mortise chisel, tack hammer etc. > > IME, good shovels are rectangular in shape, though a round-ended or > pointy spoon-like spade can serve for shifting almost as well. When it > comes to digging, I want a pointy spade to dig a hole, but a > square-edged one to turn a garden bed. > That depends on what it is you are shovelling. If for example you're shovelling wet concrete with aggregate any bigger than pea gravel out of a wheelbarrow, then you want a rounded or pointy ended shovel. A square bladed shovel with high sides would in theory move more material, but it would be hard to get it deep into the concrete, and if you did you'd have trouble lifting it. |
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262412 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Oxford English Dictionary: Spade: "1. A tool for digging, paring, or cutting ground, turf, etc, now usually consisting of a flattish rectangular iron blade socketted on a wooden handle which has a grip or cross-piece at the upper end, the whole thing being adapted for grasping with both hands while the blade is pressed into the ground with the foot." Shovel: "1. A spade-like implement, consisting of a broad blade of metal or other material (more or less hollow and often with upturned sides), attached to a handle and used for raising and removing quantities of earth, grain, coal or other loose material. (In some dialects the word is applied to a spade.)" I believe that in more common modern parlance the two words have often become interchangeable, but the distinction between the two tools is of considerable antiquity, existing in Old English, German, and Frisian. Note particularly in the definition of spade, "... a flattish rectangular iron blade..." Both words are independent of each other for a thousand or more years. Shovelling is related to shovel, but shovel appears to be earlier, and the relationship like that of hammering to hammer. English is fond of turning nouns into verbal forms. Mike in Woodland |
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262413 | Al Frampton <oldtoolalf@g...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
On 5 Jun 2017, at 15:17, Cliff |
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262414 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2017‑06‑05 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
My favorite definition so far. It brings to mind the story about the two navvies down in a ditch digging while the supervisor sits under a tree in the shade. One says to the other, why is this?! The other says, "I'll go ask." He climbs out of the ditch and asks the supervisor. "It's like this," says the super. The super holds a shovel upright in front of the tree. "Hit the shovel with your fist." The navvy swings to hit the shovel and the super moves the shovel aside so that the poor fellow drives his fist into the tree. He returns to the ditch. "What did he say?" asks his friend. "Well, he said it's like this," and not having a tree, holds the shovel in front of his face... |
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262418 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑06‑06 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
wow looks like the only way to settle it is by mortal kombat I wonder if Talisa Soto is busy. |
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262420 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2017‑06‑06 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Brian Welch wrote: > This 1926 Ames Shovel, Spade and Scoop catalog makes me realize that > chisels are easy to categorize compared to shovels: > http://stonehill-website.s3.amazonaws.com/files/resources/1926-ames- catalog.pdf">http://stonehill-website.s3.amazonaws.com/files/resources/1926 -ames-catalog.pdf I think that puts an end to the "right" versus "wrong" discussion. It more complicated than that! (great catalogue) BugBear |
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263283 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Doubtless already answered, but a spade of whatever shape is a digging and prying implement, with the strength and geometry to lift and break soil or whatever. A shovel is a scooping and moving implement. Hence on our small horse farm where we have several of each in various shapes, we use spades for holes and trenches and occasional rock-prying, and shovels for grain, stall-cleaning, loose dirt and gravel moving, and mixing and lifting small batches of concrete. If we lived further north, we'd also have shovels for snow, whereas in snow weather, spades are only used by me in card games. J Joseph Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Adam R. Maxwell Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 10:21 AM To: Cliff |
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263284 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Ed: Yes, but, I have long-handled pointy spades with no D, as well as short D-handled sharp shooters and diggers. J Joseph Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Ed Minch Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:51 AM To: Matthew Groves |
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263285 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
YMDV Ed Minch |
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263288 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
Just once, in all these spades, nibs, squibs, tibs, bibs, the angle of a dovetail (& which to start first) and what not; I'd like to find just one inalienable pure distilled crystalline unassailable absolute truth. Maybe it's all because of the space aliens and those ruins in Peru - and the mice. What color should the towel be? 9/10/2017 12:06 PM, Ed Minch wrote: |
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263326 | Gye Greene <gyegreene@g...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
I'm late to the game, but one last poke: From a pre-internet gardening book (Sunset, Western Garden Book, c. 1967, 1973 revision, p. 92: "Shovels are designed for scooping, lifting, digging, and mixing." It seems to treat "spades" as a sub-class of shovel. The pointy-nosed "trench spade" (which looks like a WWII-type Army trenching tool, and is vaguely reminiscent of the suit, in cards), is "for digging in close quarters". The "spade" (no adjectives or modifiers in the illustration) illustrated is square-nosed, referred to as a "standard spade" in the text, and is for "digging and turning soil, [...] digging trenches and planting holes, and pruning roots. Some gardeners learn to use it for weeding (sliding it along parallel to the ground with a slicing motion) or breaking up soil crust (quick, shallow, closely-spaced vertical slices)." They also show a "narrow spade" for ditches, post holes, and etc., and a "small spade" -- which to me just looks like a small shovel. It notes that a spade should be sharpened with a file -- but doesn't say anything about sharpening a shovel. My inference is that spades are primarily for cutting turf, roots, etc. as you dig; shovels are for moving the debris. There's some overlap in tasks -- but each is optimized for one or the other. It's apparently a daily task for archaeologists, out on a dig (read this in some "fieldwork" book; won't be able to find the source). On that topic: I found this link by accident -- http://arf.berkeley.edu/then-dig/2011/07/shovels-regional-diversity-in- one-of-our-most-indispensible-tools/">http://arf.berkeley.edu/then-dig/2011/07 /shovels-regional-diversity-in-one-of-our-most-indispensible-tools/ -- which indicates that some archaeologists sharpen their shovels, also. --Travis |
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263327 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
I think this is the right distinction, for no other reason than it’s the one I’ve always used. :) Before they sold out to The Man, Smith & Hawken used to sell an English Garden Spade. The business end was beefy and I could see why sharpening it with a file would make a lot of sense. The beefy wooden handle was trapped in two beefy tangs and fixed with two beefy rivets. Sadly back then I couldn’t afford the Spade, so for me the S&H catalog was largely pornographic. But I do sometimes search that auction site for antique spades and I’m committed to the hunt. I have a couple of crap-axes for grubbing roots but the beefy and sharpened edge of a spade sure looks like it would tame the Godawful bull tallow clay that passes for soil in my part of NC. MPf. |
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263328 | Steve Jones <stjones@k...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
GGs; I just thought spades were used mostly vertically and shovels mostly horizontally (with concomitantly greater capacity for transporting material). Steve in Kokomo "If I ain't bleedin', I ain't workin'." |
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263329 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
It kind of surprises and amuses me that people feel a need to be "correct" over something everyone knows, and it hardly matters anyway. Now, what I have real trouble with, is volume. A quick rough count showed me 18 shovels in current readiness for use. I have 4 or 5 more candidate heads laying around waiting to see what I want to do with them. I have short D handles and longer T handles as well and long straight handles. I have a trenching tool from WW1 and several "children's" tools. Lately they make some really cute small ones, and I have a couple/three of those too. One the rare square end variety. I have mounted new handles and carved shovel handles from scratch and reworked heads into different configurations. Made shovels into spades and vise versa, if the names are still important to you. lol I have only one genuine piece of information to add. Maybe you already know? But last winter we got a sudden 3 feet of snow. Ker-plop. Nearly everyone was snowed in. I have been in sudden snowfalls before, so I put my wittile twuck into 4WD and cut ruts every hour until it stopped. Looked like Wagon Train across the prairie, but I could at least get out. This didn't help with my walkways to and from the carport, and eventually lots of snow got shoveled. At my tender young age it was kicking me like an angry little girl with a rag doll. I would go hard a good 1/2 hour, then rest up for an hour. On like that. So during one of the rest periods I was thinking, there has to be something better than this. Having a selection of tools I was using a 10" wide grain scoop on a long handle. (oops sorry to introduce a new name, now we have to argue the correct use of scoop too? lol) But anyway, the job and the tool were kicking my ass, was my point. I have always been naturally lazy. If there is an easier way I ---WILL--- find it. ha I took my shovel (live with it, you know what I meant) down to the shop and scraped it smooth as butter with a razor blade scraper followed by steel wool. Did a good job of it (I couldn't move any more snow anyway). I then put 2 coats of paste wax on it. Holy Mackerel!!!!!! On the next round I was astounded by the reduced effort it took. I moved more snow in a shorter period, with less exhaustion, than I would have ever believed. I'll never shovel snow with an unpolished tool again!! yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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263354 | David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> | 2017‑09‑21 | Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism |
From: scott grandstaff<mailto:scottg@s...> Re: [OldTools] Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism I'll never shovel snow with an unpolished tool again!! yours Scott I still find myself shoveling despite having a farm tractor with a blade and a snow thrower. There are always those bits that are too small or too close to the bright work to risk crashing a power tool full of snow on them. I did bend to modern pressure and buy a factory made snow shovel with an ergonomically bent handle. Works without bending over. This year I’m going to polish that thing till it shines and then wax poetically upon it. Or maybe just paste wax after all. |
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