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262424 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2017‑06‑07 | Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Sorry for the long post – I thought it would be shorter – skip to the numbered questions if desired. So I’m still alive here in Duluth GA and I just completed a pair of walnut nightmare stands for die Frau. 90% galoot build other than some sanding and rough dimensioning early on. Hide glue all the way baby! Now I’m on to a hall table to replace the Walmart Knotty Pine Barf Board she brought to our union a decade ago. I need to get this done before the Fall. Driving up from GA to hit Brimfield in September show her the Cape and Newport, etc. and of course see all the family and old gin joints for a wee bit. Anyway I already expect a U-Haul trailer and some of the earlier generations of family furniture to come back. I really don’t want a hall table from Brimfield cuz I already have the wood and mental plans for one. So the goal – get this done on nuclear emergency time vs my standard slowed down galoot time. As for the hall table the top is at the moment going to be 16” x 48” - that seems about standard and I expect to come close to that. Height between 27” and 28”. I have two leftover pieces of black walnut from the aforementioned earlier build and plan on making the top from a piece likely to be 12” x 44” – i.e., purposefully 2” short all the way around. The missing 2” will be made from a 2” curly maple wrap framing the walnut on all sides. I pondered an inlay line between the walnut and maple but really don’t know what makes sense as a contrast from two already diametrically shaded woods PLUS I’m not sure I want to tackle an inlay on this project. So I dropped that thought In detail, the length of the walnut will be 44” and to each long edge will be glued a 48” strip of maple (extending 2” past each end of the walnut). To the ends of the walnut will be a 2” long piece of maple that fills the space, i.e., 12” wide. So the end maple boards will be 2” in the grain direction and 12” in the cross grain (likely a glue up of a couple section of 6” wide board offcuts. What you will see is all grain of all wood will go in the same direction, but the top will still be a picture frame sort of construct. I don’t really want a floating panel of walnut in a frame of maple for a table top. My question or questions – we’ll see how this goes – are as follows: 1) I will have a tenon on the maple or walnut at the ends similar to a breadboard tenon to ensure that I have adequate glue up on this end grain to end grain connection. I’ve checked expansion of the woods and they are within about 1/8” of one another over this distance…this seems similar enough that I could glue the tenon in along it’s whole length rather than pin it like one normally does with breadboard ends. Any major concerns with this? 2) Assuming that I can glue the entirety of the tenon between the ends of the walnut and maple AND I will be gluing the long piece of maple to the short end pieces of maple along their mating edge at the front of the table, I am leaning toward allowing a gap to occur at the back side of the short piece to long piece connection via a floating tenon. This seems like a better idea than gluing that whole frame up solid to a rigid (yet movable) piece of walnut, even though all grain is aligned. Just not sure if over these distances expansion of the two different woods is an issue or not. Thoughts here? Of course if the back and two ends need allow for movement I can make that happen as well. 3) My maple is ¾” S4S but has moderate tear out. I have been pondering how to deal with this. My current thoughts are (a) sand all tear out down on the maple prior to gluing it to the walnut. I may be able to taper the maple from a glued edge to the outside by some amount for example ¾” down to 5/8” or ½” should I find that I need to sand a full 1/8” plus off the maple; or(b) fill the tear out with blond shellac and maple dust. Does anyone have a thought on these options or any other? Scott G in Duluth GA |
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262425 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑07 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Scott I think using short grain piecses for the ends is a great idea to avoid the inevitable “shrinkage”. Then maybe a loose tenon that fits into mortises on both the end grain of the walnut and the end grain of the maple where they meet - that way you don’t need longer lengths of either piece. Similarly, a longspline coule fit into grooves on the long grain sides. An “inlay” may be easier than you think. If you cut the walnut to size, then cut a small rabbet all the way around, you could glue in a mitered strip of wood like a tiny picture frame, plane or scrape it even with the edges/ends and top of the walnut, then treat it like one piece of wood. What about a thin strip of maple and walnut with the walnutstrip against the maple and the maplestrip against the walnut? Now you have not added a color or texture. Something like .05-.07" each combining to make .1-.15” (total about 1/16”). Keep the joinery simple for maximum speed - I can sympathize Ed Minch |
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262426 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2017‑06‑07 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Ed said... > An “inlay” may be easier than you think. If you cut the walnut to size, then cut a small rabbet all the way around, you could glue in a mitered strip of wood like a tiny picture frame, plane or scrape it even with the edges/ends and top of the walnut, then treat it like one piece of wood. What about a thin strip of maple and walnut with the walnutstrip against the maple and the maplestrip against the walnut? Now you have not added a color or texture. Something like .05-.07" each combining to make .1-.15” (total about 1/16”). Duh - I never thought of that...I was envisioning routing a groove after glue up. This may actually be a very doable idea...thank you. Whereas my way would have required power tools or a 71 and a lot of stress ending with a substandard result. and I may have to tune my scrapers up.... but that's an awful lot of scraping whereas I could just pass the maple to the modern woodworkers as contract work and get it back into my galoot shop for hand tool follow up |
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262430 | yorkshireman@y... | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Scott exposes his ideas to a galoot check (sensible fella ) I LIKE Ed’s suggestion by the way, but as I read, it was about a 1/4 inch of each timber. A very tangible statement, rather than a refined whiff of elegance, which says ‘I can do this’ rather than being in your face. Whatever - you need a great, french polished top that has some real depth to bring out the timbers. As for the making, I hear you saying that you are building up a solid top, so glue up the end grain ends to the walnut, use a continuous tongue at each end, or glue in a loose tongue more like, and have a single, solid slab, then run your stopped groove and loose tongue on the sides and glue those in. - You attended to the rebates and glued in sections as you went of course, Mitre the corners of the stringing inlay. Myself - I’d maybe go for thinning down the edges all the way to a half inch or so - maybe using a large moulding plane so there is a curve away from the edge. Always looks elegant when the edges are thin. The tear out though - you have a tricky time of. To maximise the appearance, you want a sliced, off the blade finish, but to remove tear out you feel an abrasive may be needed. If you have some test pieces, use them to check your techique. essentially, super sharp plane blades and a high ange, a very high angle, are the way to go, then cabinet scrapers. If you are not accustomed to using them, do plenty of practice first, and again, especially practice resharpening. And, if all else fails, reach for the coarse abrasive, and be prepared to go over the entire surface with several grits. If you shoudl decide to go the highly polished route, then you wont want to see dished in areas where you abraded out a section of tear out. Try hard to avoid fillers. Check out the use of pumice as well as/instead of sawdust/shellac mix. Sounds a good project. I always feel envious of all your American Walnut. Richard Wilson a Galoot in Northumbria |
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262431 | "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
When I recently built a low chest of drawers using Tiger (curly) Maple, I used a bevel up low angle smoother with a 50 degree blade for an effective cutting angle of 62 degrees--no tear out. I also tried a LN 4 1/2 smoother with a 55 degree frog but there was still tear out. A super sharp high angle will do the trick. Cheers, John “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P. On Jun 8, 2017, at 2:40 AM, "yorkshireman@y...<mailto:yorkshireman@y...">mailto:yorkshireman@y...>" |
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262432 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Richard - perfect. If you are careful with wood selection the joints could all but dissapear and it would look like a large piece of maple with a rectangular hole filled with a piece of walnut. Ed Minch |
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262433 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Lots of great advice on and off list. thank you all. Some of the thoughts that came my way have resulted in a little redesign. I like the the inlay stringing and with the "doh" moment I now think this might be a good stretching of skills, and with some sharp tools and careful cutting I should be able to get gap free contact. A little walnut saw dust to fill any small gaps - this should be nice. thanks Ed. Near every on and off list comment frowned upon sanding...so I'm convinced. While walking on the imaginary slip and slide and reading emails John suggested a low angle smoother with a 50 degree blade - whoops just slipped. Because as a bottom feeder, that's a tool I don't have...but Lie Nielson does. I may trade him some green stuff for his No. 164. Hey I'm saving SWMBO some money right! Woo hoo looks like I'll be getting my first Lie Nielson soon. Assuming I do this inlay, I may go with a bolder statement a la Richard. Again my original reasoning was minimizing the potential for gap with one seam instead of adding three possibilities - but as I think about this, with slightly oversize inlay and sharp tools it might be easier than I imagine. And Richard also more eloquently explained what i was thinking about re: tapering the maple. By getting the tear out handled as lumber pre-glue up I can have a smooth top surface and regardless of how much or little I planed the wood I can taper the entirety of the maple from 1/2" at the visible edge to the remaining thickness on the bottom. If I'm slightly under 3/4" it wont be a problem. And thanks Richard for shoving me finally down the french polish method ;-) I use lots of shellac on walnut but build it. I have been pining for attempting a french polish. thanks all Scott in Duluth |
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262435 | curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Sharpening the common garden hoe |
>Should it be sharpened with a double > bevel or a single bevel? While I have been told that it depends on whether it is a ripping or cross-furough hoe, I have always used a simple single out-cannel bezel and found that to be sufficient. The time saved has allowed me to touch up the hoe nib, which keeps it looking quite smart. |
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262437 | "Maddex, Peter" <peter.maddex@n...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Sharpening the common garden hoe |
Cambered or straight blade? Pete -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of curt seeliger Sent: 08 June 2017 14:15 To: John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) |
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262438 | Archie England | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Sharpening the common garden hoe |
On my grandparents farm, all our hoes were sharpened only with a single bevel (inside) leaving the backs flat. From: paul womack |
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262439 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:56 AM, Scott Garrison |
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262440 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Ed says: > Your inlay does not have to be much oversized. If I can do this around a curve, you can do > it on a straight. Tape the multiple pieces in the groove, then adjust the tape until you get it just > right. Always love the guitars Ed, I learn a lot from all the pics that is transferable to bigger less finely tuned projects. Unlike you I'm closer to St Roy in finish than Stradivarius - but this is good info; the thin CA. And that first pic had a strange Stanley router plane in it....what was that the elusive 2000-271? LOL Seriously though that binding is top notch |
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262441 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Sharpening the common garden hoe |
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 5:27 AM, John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) < jmjhnstn@m...> wrote: > Should it be sharpened with a double bevel or a single bevel? Single bevel, with the edge away from me kept flat for registering against the edge for better cutting. Mirror finish on the back not required. -- Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA |
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262442 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
What a fascinatingly different approach to the same thing! Where Ed would align the pieces and then wick in superglue, I would align the pieces, heat them , and slather hide glue over the whole thing. Or, miss the heating, and use a quality glue like a titebond III or maybe cascamote. My aim is to make the new wood an integral part of the old wood, so they are absolutely one single indissoluble item. somehow I never quite trust cyanoacrylate for woodworking. I’m prepared to be convinced though. Once the whole thing is a single piece, it becomes quite simple to finish it to a given size for the next jointing. finely tuned plane followed by scrapers etc. Your choice, according to availability, familiarity with the tools, and the particular grain of the timber. I hope we see photos! Richard Wilson Galoot in Northumbria |
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262443 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Sharpening the common garden hoe |
Worked on my uncle’s tree farm fro 11 years starting at age 11. We were taught just as Qrchie says - use your file to bevel the outside edge, leaving the back flat. Sharpen 2-3 times a day. Ed Minch |
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262444 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
With the very rare wooden sole Ed Minch |
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262445 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Richard People are crazy, and there is a guy who built an entire guitar with Titebond where nothing was clamped longer than 10 minutes - success. He then built an entire guitar out of CA using accelerator - success. I would not have believed it either, but I now have some 4 year old guitar jobs that are holding just fine with CA. Ed Minch |
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262446 | <gtgrouch@r...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Sharpening the common garden hoe |
File the inside edge to a relatively flat and even edge. Just like your shovel. Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA ---- Kirk Eppler |
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262447 | <gtgrouch@r...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
My father-in-law built flying model planes using CA. Not as much stress as a guitar neck, but failure of a joint would be severe and messy. YMMV, Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA ---- Ed Minch |
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262448 | RH Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Sharpening the common garden hoe |
On 6/8/2017 10:48 AM, Ed Minch wrote: > Worked on my uncle’s tree farm fro 11 years starting at age 11. We were taught just as Qrchie says - use your file to bevel the outside edge, leaving the back flat. Sharpen 2-3 times a day. I am the youngest of 9 kids. My dad (born in 1894), who had been reared in an orphanage, kept a home vegetable garden of a quarter acre or more from the late '20s into the mid '50s. I spent many hours before I was old enough for school with him 'tending' the garden (which mostly meant staying out of it but fetching tools or water or whatever). One thing I remember is how he cared for his tools. After the main part of the growing season was over and the winter garden had been planted, he would sharpen hoes, shovels, and other implements he used. I don't recall whether or not he honed both sides of a hoe blade, but I suspect he only did the inner face. What I do remember clearly is that he would clean up both faces of shovels, hoes, mattocks, etc. and would actually put beeswax on them. He also wiped down all wooden handles with boiled linseed oil. I still have some of those tools with handles intact all these years later and use them. Bob Hutchins Temple, TX USA |
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262450 | Nathan Goodwin <hiscarpentry@g...> | 2017‑06‑08 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
An ancient technique in smoothing wood was with shark skin. Using abrasive to smooth wood pre-dates the blade. So sanding is not a new way to level out a surface. Nathan Goodwin H.I.S. Carpentry Honesty. Integrity. Service. |
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262452 | Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> | 2017‑06‑09 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
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262454 | Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> | 2017‑06‑09 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Hi On 2017-06-09 07:34, Derek Cohen wrote: > Why has no one yet mentioned the use of a double iron? A Stanley #3 (my preference over a #4) with the chipbreaker closed down will control any tearout, and leave a clearer finish than a high cutting angle. Steve Elliott has done a lot of great work on this question. Note that it takes a sharp blade, a correctly shaped chip breaker, and a very small space between the chip breaker and the edge. Read all about it: http://planetuning.infillplane.com/ Hunt around those pages for some great science based results. Brent -- Brent Beach Victoria, BC, Canada |
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262455 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑06‑12 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Derek Looks great - is that a local wood? Ed Minch |
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262458 | Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> | 2017‑06‑13 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
> Derek > > Looks great - is that a local wood? > > Ed Minch Hi Ed The timber I used in the kitchen is Hard Maple from the USA. The locals (in Oz) call it Rock Maple. There is also a Queensland Maple, which is indigenous to Oz, but it looks quite different. Below is an example of Qld Maple … http://static.time4timber.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Queensland- Maple-Dining-Table-1-w800-h600.jpg">http://static.time4timber.com.au/wp- content/uploads/2011/11/Queensland-Maple-Dining-Table-1-w800-h600.jpg I am presently building a sofa table from Hard Maple. The build (mostly hand tools) is documented at the end of this Index page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.html Regards from Perth Derek |
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263289 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
John: I spent part of yesterday saying nice things about you. Remember that 26" blade Disston heavy mitre-box backsaw you sent for Galootaclaus a few years back? Well, it was absolutely just the ticket yesterday for cutting the crown molding I was installing. The weight and the nice, long stroke make for comfortable and precise work. Joseph Sullivan |
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263290 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Derek: Unless you want to use the scientific name Acer Saccharum, the correct names for hard maple are: Hard Maple; or Sugar Maple. I am under the impression that Rock Maple took hold as an additional common name because it was a brand name for a particular hard maple furniture manufacturer. Have you ever tasted true maple syrup or maple sugar? They are made from the spring sap of that tree. Joe. Joseph Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Derek Cohen Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:49 AM To: oldtools@s... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Curly Maple Tear Out & Table > Derek > > Looks great - is that a local wood? > > Ed Minch Hi Ed The timber I used in the kitchen is Hard Maple from the USA. The locals (in Oz) call it Rock Maple. There is also a Queensland Maple, which is indigenous to Oz, but it looks quite different. Below is an example of Qld Maple … http://static.time4timber.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Queensland- Maple-Dining-Table-1-w800-h600.jpg">http://static.time4timber.com.au/wp- content/uploads/2011/11/Queensland-Maple-Dining-Table-1-w800-h600.jpg I am presently building a sofa table from Hard Maple. The build (mostly hand tools) is documented at the end of this Index page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.html Regards from Perth Derek ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. To change your subscription options: https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools To read the FAQ: https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/ OldTools@s... |
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263318 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2017‑09‑18 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Back in June I asked a few questions about a table I hoped to build...lots of answers were given and some of them resulted in changes to the initial design. So here is the final product: https://photos.app.goo.gl/sGZXDTKQ62PaVzSg1 From my initial post.... > So the goal – get this done on nuclear emergency time vs my standard slowed down galoot time. I completed this in about 5 weeks time, of course while holding down a job and keeping it a secret amongst other myriad tasks...you all know how that goes....mighty happy that it only took five weeks work even if it was about 8-10 in real time what with business travel etc. > As for the hall table the top is at the moment going to be 16” x 48” - that seems about standard and I expect to come close to that. Height between 27” and 28”. I have two leftover pieces of black walnut from the aforementioned earlier build and plan on making the top from a piece likely to be 12” x 44” – i.e., purposefully 2” short all the way around. The missing 2” will be made from a 2” curly maple wrap framing the walnut on all sides. I pondered an inlay line between the walnut and maple but really don’t know what makes sense as a contrast from two already diametrically shaded woods PLUS I’m not sure I want to tackle an inlay on this project. So I dropped that thought The alternating inlay was recommended here - I liked the idea and went with it. One coat of BLO and many coats of shellac - I tried french polishing but ultimately resorted to slopping thin coats on, sanding, pumicing, rotten-stoning, and waxing. I had a real hard time scraping the grain...need more work on scraper sharpening so I resorted to a tailed demon. But all the joinery, glue, and finish was galoot approved, as was most of the actual sawing (other than tapering the legs)... She loves it, and now I can move onto a personal project. Well maybe, cuz she's lining up other wants now. Scott G in Duluth GA |
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263320 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2017‑09‑18 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 5:36 PM Scott Garrison |
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263321 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑09‑18 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Very nice design and execution. Pretty combination of woods Ed Minch |
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263322 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2017‑09‑18 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Scott finishes something… (I thought we had a rule about not doing that? - Oh, more a guideline than a rule? well, OK then, if you’re saying it’s *allowed* to complete stuff,) Ahem. All joking apart, What I was saying was - That’s a very elegant piece with the inlay banding around the top. Really adds to the look. I’ll hide the photos from SWMBO, don’t want to add any more to the list. Really good work Scott, I have table envy now. Scraper sharpening isn’t tricky. I must publish photos of my file holder. Provides a new edge in a few strokes, and its optional about adding a hook, depending on the material. Thanks to Scott G for that. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot in Northumbria |
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263324 | Greg Isola <gregorywisola@g...> | 2017‑09‑18 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Scott: Simply beautiful work on all fronts. It is inspiring to see good design and good execution come together so wonderfully! Is that bottom shelf a single, super-wide walnut board, or some sort of bookmatched glue-up? Hard for me to tell from the pics, but it is lovely, regardless. Thanks for sharing. Greg Isola Alameda, CA |
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263325 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2017‑09‑18 | Re: Curly Maple Tear Out & Table |
Thank you for the kudos all. And thank you for the helping points as well. Finally getting around to using the tools that I have accumulated over all these years. Greg asked > Is that bottom shelf a single, super-wide walnut board, or some sort of bookmatched glue-up? The original two boards for this build were about 8 foot long or so...maybe 10 I can't recall but were between 10 and 13 inches wide depending upon where measured. The boards were definitely cut from the same tree and I believe they were consecutive cuts. Much of the wood was used for two nightstand tops and a lower shelf given to her for her birthday earlier in the year. Those were not posted but were galoot builds as well. The remaining pieces of this walnut are in this hall table and two highly figured sections of somewhere between 24-30 inches long. The short pieces will be used for a guitar back that I will eventually (read likely "never" get around to) build. The lower shelf on the hall table comprises the two large sap wood sections bookmatched to one another. I was hoping that it would complement the maple...and if I didn't include it I would have needed to add a third piece to get the width. To clarify a bit more one half of the top and one half of the bottom shelf were ripped from the same 48 in length and glued to the same arrangement from another like board. |
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