OldTools Archive
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276935 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2023‑01‑27 | DIY Miter plane |
I an still in the opinion that I will build or buy a special purpose miter plane.... But I had something that bugs me.... Why is it that most if not almost all the miter planes I find are from England? I rarely find a US based miter plane... So the question I am asking i what did US ( or for that natter, German French, etc) makers of fine cabinetry use to square the ends of their boards? Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@G... |
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276936 | Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@g...> | 2023‑01‑27 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
Hi Frank, What time era are you thinking of for an answer to this question? I see Rob Cosman very successfully using a #6 plane on its side with a shooting board and wish I hadn't sold off so many planes when I moved cross country. I've always assumed that using a standard plane this was what the old timers did as well. One of these days I'd like to try out one of the infill miter planes that look so appealing (perhaps getting a St. James Bay casting set). I definitely enjoy using my Nonesuch Toolwerks 151, of course. Pete North of Seattle On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:26 PM Frank Filippone |
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276937 | Adam R. Maxwell | 2023‑01‑27 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
> On Jan 26, 2023, at 19:26 , Frank Filippone |
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276938 | Bill Ghio | 2023‑01‑27 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
> On Jan 26, 2023, at 10:26 PM, Frank Filippone |
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276939 | Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> | 2023‑01‑27 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
I may be late to this thread so if this is redundant, apologies. For building a metal miter plane Bill Carter has provide a loooong series of videos on how to do it step-by-step with simple tools. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtrJ_TcbkJKK_qNTTpeF5DKmDuik6hSEf I’ve read, and it seems reasonable, that English miter planes are found in a wide range of lengths, widths and bed angles so were made for several uses. It’s a simple single iron design that is an easy form to knock together. The classic, massive, low-angle miter plane (Spiers, Moon, Norris, Towell, Moseley etc.) though sturdily built was meant for delicate work and the thin mouth is fragile. Many are seen with the mouths blown out Shooting (chuteing?) lumber is a pretty violent act and a sturdy plane with a higher angle pitch and an iron beveled at a steeper angle might be preferred. Again, if this is common knowledge I apologize. There’s a deep dive on miter planes here: http://mshepherdpiano.com <http://mshepherdpiano.com/> Cheers, Kevin |
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276940 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2023‑01‑28 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
On Jan 26, 2023, at 10:26 PM, Frank Filippone |
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276941 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2023‑01‑28 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
Thank you every one for adding to the knowledge of miter planes... There seems to be some evidence to the theory that they were created to perform accurate work on veneers for some form of parquetry .... they are pretty small versions commonly found. If you were working on a 1" thick piece of white oak, and you wanted to make a precision 90 degree end, you would certainly not use a 4-6 inch long plane... not enough mass. If you were working on creating a 1x1 inch masterpiece parquetry piece of 1/16" beech, it would be more appropriate..... The NYC planes for piano makers were generally larger.... as suits the wood sizes and species they were working with. Today we make our shooting boards from plywood, maybe a bit of termite barf board, and can square anything, using a purpose built plane. 100-300 years ago I suspect the use of a regular, reasonably long plane would have served the same purpose.... not that I have seen an old shooting board made from wood, They seem to be reasonably rare metal contraptions, and few models seem to show up for sale. And, Yes Bill, the prices on the planes you pointed me too are definitely in the non-viable region for me.... Maybe I will get lucky and find a suitable infill plane body and make one form that.... OTOH, I have a lot of #6 Baileys, and they are workable, if not easily handled.... I like the hot dogs..... Maybe I need hot dogs? Back to the drawing board..... Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@G... |
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276942 | Bill Ghio | 2023‑01‑28 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
> On Jan 28, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Frank Filippone |
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276943 | Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> | 2023‑01‑28 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
Hot dog — it took Stanley to decide it needed one too. The No. 9 was introduced in 1870 and listed in their catalogs simply as “Block plane, 10 inches in length, 2 inch cutter” until the 1892 catalog where they waxed poetic about it being for the Piano Forte Maker and Cabinet Maker and how the side handle with slot and set screw included with every plane made it ideal for using on its side on shooting boards. The hot dog wasn’t pictured or mentioned before that. Ditto on the LN 9 hot dog. Mine is back in the plastic bag. I don’t find that it makes it much easier to use on shooting board. I am glad I got the side knob though — much more useful. Kevin |
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276944 | Chuck Taylor | 2023‑01‑28 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
Frank, A low-angle jack plane does the job for me and my shooting board. Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA |
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276945 | Bridger Berdel <bridgerberdel@g...> | 2023‑01‑28 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
I am of the opinion that a swivellable rear handle to fit Stanley 4-1/2 through 8 would be a profitable product. On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 9:23 AM Frank Filippone |
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276946 | Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> | 2023‑01‑28 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
I started out using an old flat side 606 on it’s side. The flat top allowed it to be nicely held on track by a fence. I’ve since bought a number of $$$other options$$$ and I don’t think I’ve gained much. Whatever you decide to use sneaking up on your final dimension by .0015” true and square is worth doing. Cheers, Kevin |
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276947 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2023‑01‑29 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
I am of the opinion that a swivellable rear handle to fit Stanley 4-1/2 through 8 would be a profitable product. You got that right!! I know a guy who is scheming on an adapter to screw into the plane and then mount the tote at a 45 degree angle. He has been dragging his feet a while now though. ( I am wondering if I should start designing one? ) The swiveling tote mounts like on a Stanley #85 are more than just a bracket. Special totes must be carved. Its kind of a hassle. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/infillscraper2.jp g Rambling follows. Kindly disregard if you get bored haahaha Most of the dedicated professional miter machines I see on this side of the earth are either Big heavy iron board and planes of regular but skewed pitch. Often a back and forth approach with 2 blades and handles. Several companies made them. Massive things. Or oversized versions of ordinary miter trimmers, often foot operated. Some of those are pretty big. 2 - 300 pound range Home shop sized miter trimmers were for the small shop. I loved mine since the day I got it. I have made a lot of picture and other small frames on it. The attachment that makes it easy to measure a molding to make up into a picture frame, is particularly valuable. (of course the usual thing in the art world is to try not to let on you can make frames. They'll kill you. They can paint 126 paintings a day if you are going to make frames and make them look good. ) Amateurs used things like the Stanley miter cutter and vise outfit. Not buttery smooth miters but plenty good enough for much work. Miter boxes too for lots of work. With big architectural stuff I just lay it out and cut it freehand with my little sweetie pie Disston 20" #7. If I have a big end that needs squared I just freehand it with a regular jack or smooth plane. If you are that close just get off the damn ladder and go mind your own business. haahahah End grain is not that scary if you just go along with how the grain is working. If you try to go against the direction the grain wants to be cut, it'll kill ya where you stand. But just go with the way it cuts the smoothest, and its not that bad. I don't have any hesitation planing end grain when I need to. I can do it with standard bevel down or I have lots of little block planes and stuff. The English style miter planes are something I admire and always wanted to make and yet, as much as I would like to have one I can't think of any reason why I would need one to use. Every time I start to make one I get distracted with other projects. haahhaah One day I will make one. yours scott . -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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276948 | Thomas Conroy | 2023‑01‑29 | Re: DIY Miter plane |
Frank Fillipone wrote: " I had something that bugs me.... Why is it that most if not almost all the miter planes I find are from England? I rarely find a US based miter plane...So the question I am asking is what did US ( or for that natter, German French, etc) makers of fine cabinetry use to square the ends of their boards?" Think of it historically. Shooting edges is much easier with certain features to the plane: 1. Tight mouth that would stay tight as the blade was sharpened back. So: metal mouth, uniform thickness blade. 2. Great mass, to power through difficult spots. 3. Rigidity of the blade and of the seating, to reduce chatter. 4. Reliable right angle between side and sole of the plane, to reduce the necessary skill by using a shuting board instead of shuting freehand.. Before the mitre plane developed in Britain, in the very late 18th or early 19th century, the work would have been done with ordinary wooden planes, demanding a high level of care and skill if it was to be done to the highest standards---but mostly it doesn't need to be done to the highest standards. The "strike block" plane, which died out early in the 19th century, was sort of like a coffin smoother or short jointer but with square sides and a fragile low-angle bed, and was a predecessor of the mitre plane. The mitre plane was a great improvement in all four features, but at the cost of---well, cost, it was maybe eight times as expensive to buy a mitre plane as an all-wood plane; so the mitre plane was reserved for the costliest part of the work of the most expensive cabinetmakers. And the British metallic planes in general developed later than we tend to think: the earliest for-sure reference to a metal dovetailed mitre plane is in the 1820s, and Spiers of Ayr got his start around the 1849s. In America, most fine tools were imported and the development of native toolmaking was a matter of patriotic boasting even after the Civil War. As in files, chisels, plane blades; very basic things. American experiments with cast iron bench planes began with Knowles in the, what, 1820s? and Bailey's basic line was available by the 1850s, with the frog invented sometime before 1867. A Bailey plane set fine had all the advantages over wood that a mitre plane had; not, perhaps, to quite as great a degree as the mitre plane, but enough to be a big improvement. And while a Bailey plane was more expensive than a woody, it was still nowhere near the price of a mitre plane. So the market for mitre planes in America, already tiny, was cut into even further by Bailey planes after 1870. There were a few New York makers of mitre planes in the 19th century (Blood and Gore's entry on the #9 refers to them, with one brief link) but nothing to provide much competition for the more prestigious English mitre planes or the cheaper but pretty much as good Stanleys. For this I checked (and corrected) my knowledge in the 3rd edition of Goodman's British Planemakers from 1700 and Vol. 1 of PTAMPIA, with a bit in Salaman's Dictionary. The thing that surprised me the most in checking actual dates was the degree to which British and American metal planes developed at the same time, and pretty much in parallel. IT was often claimed in the 20th century that the slow penetration of Bailey-style planes into the British market was due to the conservatism of British workmen, and this may well be a big part of the answer; but the similarity of dates makes this explanation seem a bit specious at face value. A similar, more refined, analysis might be tried. In America the rapid growth of the population and spread of built-up areas, and the comparatively few opportunities to find apprenticeships, meant that there was high-wage demand for carpenters even if they weren't very good (In California during the Gold Rush you could make more money as a carpenter than as a gold miner---and that was not different from towns all across the country, just a bit exaggerated). High-wage half-trained carpenters had a need for tools that would reduce the skill needed just to use them; and both half-trained and European- trained immigrant carpenters would have money for expensive tools. In England, with an effective apprenticeship system and less new construction, there were more skilled carpenters chasing fewer and lower-paid jobs and so a higher price for a tool that required less skill had much less appeal than in America. So more-expensive metal planes found their niche only where they made a major difference, in the very highest-quality work or among workmen who aspired to the highest quality. In a way this is just baack to "British workmen bought mitre planes because they were more conservative," but it gives a bit of subtlety to how and why they were more conservative. Just speculation, but worth thinking about. Tom ConroyBerkeley |
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