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276935 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2023‑01‑27 DIY Miter plane
I an still in the opinion that I will build or buy a special purpose miter
plane....

But I had something that bugs me....

Why is it that most if not almost all the miter planes I find are from England?
I rarely find a US based miter plane...

So the question I am asking i what did US ( or for that natter, German French,
etc) makers of fine cabinetry use to square the ends of their boards?

Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@G...
276936 Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@g...> 2023‑01‑27 Re: DIY Miter plane
Hi Frank,

What time era are you thinking of for an answer to this question?

I see Rob Cosman very successfully using a #6 plane on its side with a
shooting board and wish I hadn't sold off so many planes when I moved cross
country.  I've always assumed that using a standard plane this was what the
old timers did as well.

One of these days I'd like to try out one of the infill miter planes that
look so appealing (perhaps getting a St. James Bay casting set). I
definitely enjoy using my Nonesuch Toolwerks 151, of course.

Pete
North of Seattle

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:26 PM Frank Filippone 
wrote:
276937 Adam R. Maxwell 2023‑01‑27 Re: DIY Miter plane
> On Jan 26, 2023, at 19:26 , Frank Filippone  wrote:
> 
> I an still in the opinion that I will build or buy a special purpose miter
plane....

They're fun to build, and you can do it all with hand tools!

> But I had something that bugs me....
> 
> Why is it that most if not almost all the miter planes I find are from
England?  I rarely find a US based miter plane...

I read Joel Moskowitz's blog series on mitre planes years ago, and he contends
that they were used for marquetry and difficult woods. It seems plausible to me,
but I've not researched it further.

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/142

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/143

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/195/title/The%20History%20of%20Mitre%
20planes%20-%20Pt%202%201/2%20-%20Details%20of%20the%20Gabriel%20Mitre%20Plane%2
0C.%201790


> So the question I am asking i what did US ( or for that natter, German French,
etc) makers of fine cabinetry use to square the ends of their boards?

This blog post talks about Moxon's "Strike-block" plane for shooting mitre
joints, but he doesn't think they were that common.

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/145/title/Wooden%20Mitre%20Planes%20-
%20John%20Green%20c.%201800

I suggest that they used a sharp bench plane or chisel. They can work as well as
a mitre plane, are easier to sharpen, and more readily available.

Adam in Benton City, WA 
(just restarting a project from 2018 and relearning how to plane and saw)
276938 Bill Ghio 2023‑01‑27 Re: DIY Miter plane
> On Jan 26, 2023, at 10:26 PM, Frank Filippone  wrote:
> 
> I an still in the opinion that I will build or buy a special purpose miter
plane....
> 
> But I had something that bugs me....
> 
> Why is it that most if not almost all the miter planes I find are from
England?  I rarely find a US based miter plane...
> 
> So the question I am asking i what did US ( or for that natter, German French,
etc) makers of fine cabinetry use to square the ends of their boards?
> 

Here you go Frank,

https://www.jimbodetools.com/pages/search-results-page?q=miter%20plane

First two rows are all labeled as “NYC” planes. Howeve, the prices will make you
wnat to build your own.

Bill
276939 Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> 2023‑01‑27 Re: DIY Miter plane
I may be late to this thread so if this is redundant, apologies.  For building a
metal miter plane Bill Carter has provide a loooong series of videos on how to
do it step-by-step with simple tools.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtrJ_TcbkJKK_qNTTpeF5DKmDuik6hSEf

I’ve read, and it seems reasonable, that English miter planes are found in a
wide range of lengths, widths and bed angles so were made for several uses.
It’s a simple single iron design that is an easy form to knock together.

The classic, massive, low-angle miter plane (Spiers, Moon, Norris, Towell,
Moseley etc.) though sturdily built was meant for delicate work and the thin
mouth is fragile.  Many are seen with the mouths blown out

Shooting (chuteing?) lumber is a pretty violent act and a sturdy plane with a
higher angle pitch and an iron beveled at a steeper angle might be preferred.

Again, if this is common knowledge I apologize.  There’s a deep dive on miter
planes here:

http://mshepherdpiano.com <http://mshepherdpiano.com/>

Cheers,

Kevin
276940 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2023‑01‑28 Re: DIY Miter plane
On Jan 26, 2023, at 10:26 PM, Frank Filippone  wrote:
> 
> So the question I am asking i what did US ( or for that natter, German French,
etc) makers of fine cabinetry

Frank, I would opine that the answer depends on the era.

In "modern" times, the Stanley #9 might be the answer to your question.  

Before that, a chuting ( shooting ) board and a bench plane is an economical
solution to this need, and was no doubt widely used.

Let's hope some Galoot can come up with contemporary references...

John Ruth
276941 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2023‑01‑28 Re: DIY Miter plane
Thank you every one for adding to the knowledge of miter planes...

There seems to be some evidence to the theory that they were created to perform
accurate work on veneers for some form of parquetry .... they are
pretty small versions commonly found.  If you were working on a 1" thick piece
of white oak, and you wanted to make a precision 90 degree end, you
would certainly not use a 4-6 inch long plane... not enough mass.  If you were
working on creating a 1x1 inch masterpiece parquetry piece of 1/16"
beech, it would be more appropriate.....

The NYC planes for piano makers were generally larger.... as suits the wood
sizes and species they were working with.

Today we make our shooting boards from plywood, maybe a bit of termite barf
board, and can square anything, using a purpose built plane.  100-300
years ago I suspect the use of a regular, reasonably long plane would have
served the same purpose.... not that I have seen an old shooting board made
from wood,  They seem to be reasonably rare metal contraptions, and few models
seem to show up for sale.

And, Yes Bill, the prices on the planes you pointed me too are definitely in the
non-viable region for me....

Maybe I will get lucky and find a suitable infill plane body and make one form
that....

OTOH, I have a lot of #6 Baileys, and they are workable, if not easily
handled.... I like the hot dogs.....

Maybe I need hot dogs?

Back to the drawing board.....


Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@G...
276942 Bill Ghio 2023‑01‑28 Re: DIY Miter plane
> On Jan 28, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Frank Filippone  wrote:
> 
> 
> OTOH, I have a lot of #6 Baileys, and they are workable, if not easily
handled.... I like the hot dogs.....
> 
> Maybe I need hot dogs?
> 
> Back to the drawing board….

Hot Dogs? This one works reasonable well. Fits the #4 1/2 and #6. But since I
sprung for the LIE-NIELSEN No. 9 Miter Plane several years ago this Hot Dog
rarely gets used.

Side view:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../52654724830/in/photostream/
Top view:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../52654563219/in/photostream/
Construction view:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../52654563239/in/photostream/

Bill
276943 Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> 2023‑01‑28 Re: DIY Miter plane
Hot dog — it took Stanley to decide it needed one too.  The No. 9 was introduced
in 1870 and listed in their catalogs simply as “Block plane, 10 inches in
length, 2 inch cutter”  until the 1892 catalog where they waxed poetic about it
being for the Piano Forte Maker and Cabinet Maker and how the side handle with
slot and set screw included with every plane made it ideal for using on its side
on shooting boards.  The hot dog wasn’t pictured or mentioned before that.

Ditto on the LN 9 hot dog.  Mine is back in the plastic bag.  I don’t find that
it makes it much easier to use on shooting board. I am glad I got the side knob
though — much more useful.

Kevin
276944 Chuck Taylor 2023‑01‑28 Re: DIY Miter plane
Frank,
A low-angle jack plane does the job for me and my shooting board.
Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA
276945 Bridger Berdel <bridgerberdel@g...> 2023‑01‑28 Re: DIY Miter plane
I am of the opinion that a swivellable rear handle to fit Stanley 4-1/2
through 8 would be a profitable product.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 9:23 AM Frank Filippone  wrote:
......snipperoo.......
276946 Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> 2023‑01‑28 Re: DIY Miter plane
I started out using an old flat side 606 on it’s side. The flat top allowed it
to be nicely held on track by a fence.  I’ve since bought a number of $$$other
options$$$ and I don’t think I’ve gained much.

Whatever you decide to use sneaking up on your final dimension by .0015” true
and square is worth doing.

Cheers,

Kevin
276947 scottg <scottg@s...> 2023‑01‑29 Re: DIY Miter plane
I am of the opinion that a swivellable rear handle to fit Stanley 4-1/2 
through 8 would be a profitable product.

   You got that right!!
  I know a guy who is scheming on an adapter to screw into the plane and 
then mount the tote at a 45 degree angle.  He has been dragging his feet 
a while now though. ( I am wondering if I should start designing one? )

  The swiveling tote mounts like on a Stanley #85 are more than just a 
bracket. Special totes must be carved. Its kind of a hassle.
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/infillscraper2.jp
g

Rambling follows. Kindly disregard if you get bored haahaha

Most of the dedicated professional miter machines I see on this side of 
the earth are either
  Big heavy iron board and planes of regular but skewed pitch.
  Often a back and forth approach with 2 blades and handles. Several 
companies made them.  Massive things.

  Or oversized versions of ordinary miter trimmers, often foot operated. 
Some of those are pretty big. 2 - 300 pound range

  Home shop sized miter trimmers were for the small shop.
  I loved mine since the day I got it. I have made a lot of picture and 
other small frames on it.  The attachment that makes it easy to measure 
a molding to make up into a picture frame, is particularly valuable.

  (of course the usual thing in the art world is to try not to let on 
you can make frames. They'll kill you. They can paint 126 paintings a 
day if you are going to make frames and make them look good. )

  Amateurs used things like the Stanley miter cutter and vise outfit. 
Not buttery smooth miters but plenty good enough for much work.
Miter boxes too for lots of work.

With big architectural stuff I just lay it out and cut it freehand with 
my little sweetie pie Disston 20" #7.
  If I have a big end that needs squared I just freehand it with a 
regular jack or smooth plane.

   If you are that close just get off the damn ladder and go mind your 
own business.  haahahah

  End grain is not that scary if you just go along with how the grain is 
working.
  If you try to go against the direction the grain wants to be cut, 
it'll kill ya where you stand.
  But just go with the way it cuts the smoothest, and its not that bad.
   I don't have any hesitation planing end grain when I need to.
I can do it with standard bevel down or I have lots of little block 
planes and stuff.

The English style miter planes are something I admire and always wanted 
to make and yet, as much as I would like to have one I can't think of 
any reason why I would need one to use.
  Every time I start to make one I get distracted with other projects. 
haahhaah

  One day I will make one.
yours scott

  .

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
276948 Thomas Conroy 2023‑01‑29 Re: DIY Miter plane
Frank Fillipone wrote: " I had something that bugs me.... Why is it that most if
not almost all the miter planes I find are from England?  I rarely find a US
based miter plane...So the question I am asking is what did US ( or for that
natter, German French, etc) makers of fine cabinetry use to square the ends of
their boards?"

Think of it historically. Shooting edges is much easier with certain features to
the plane:

1. Tight mouth that would stay tight as the blade was sharpened back. So: metal
mouth, uniform thickness blade.
2. Great mass, to power through difficult spots.
3. Rigidity of the blade and of the seating, to reduce chatter.
4. Reliable right angle between side and sole of the plane, to reduce the
necessary skill by using a shuting board instead of shuting freehand..
Before the mitre plane developed in Britain, in the very late 18th or early 19th
century, the work would have been done with ordinary wooden planes, demanding a
high level of care and skill if it was to be done to the highest standards---but
mostly it doesn't need to be done to the highest standards. The "strike block"
plane, which died out early in the 19th century, was sort of like a coffin
smoother or short jointer but with square sides and a fragile low-angle bed, and
was a predecessor of the mitre plane. The mitre plane was a great improvement in
all four features, but at the cost of---well, cost, it was maybe eight times as
expensive to buy a mitre plane as an all-wood plane; so the mitre plane was
reserved for the costliest part of the work of the most expensive cabinetmakers.
And the British metallic planes in general developed later than we tend to
think: the earliest for-sure reference to a metal dovetailed mitre plane is in
the 1820s, and Spiers of Ayr got his start around the 1849s.

In America, most fine tools were imported and the development of native
toolmaking was a matter of patriotic boasting even after the Civil War. As in
files, chisels, plane blades; very basic things. American experiments with cast
iron bench planes began with Knowles in the, what, 1820s? and Bailey's basic
line was available by the 1850s, with the frog invented sometime before 1867. A
Bailey plane set fine had all the advantages over wood that a mitre plane had;
not, perhaps, to quite as great a degree as the mitre plane, but enough to be a
big improvement. And while a Bailey plane was more expensive than a woody, it
was still nowhere near the price of a mitre plane. So the market for mitre
planes in America, already tiny, was cut into even further by Bailey planes
after 1870. There were a few New York makers of mitre planes in the 19th century
(Blood and Gore's entry on the #9 refers to them, with one brief link) but
nothing to provide much competition for the more prestigious English mitre
planes or the cheaper but pretty much as good Stanleys.
For this I checked (and corrected) my knowledge in the 3rd edition of Goodman's
British Planemakers from 1700 and Vol. 1 of PTAMPIA, with a bit in Salaman's
Dictionary. The thing that surprised me the most in checking actual dates was
the degree to which British and American metal planes developed at the same
time, and pretty much in parallel. IT was often claimed in the 20th century that
the slow penetration of Bailey-style planes into the British market was due to
the conservatism of British workmen, and this may well be a big part of the
answer; but the similarity of dates makes this explanation seem a bit specious
at face value. A similar, more refined, analysis might be tried. In America the
rapid growth of the population and spread of built-up areas, and the
comparatively few opportunities to find apprenticeships, meant that there was
high-wage demand for carpenters even if they weren't very good (In California
during the Gold Rush you could make more money as a carpenter than as a gold
miner---and that was not different from towns all across the country, just a bit
exaggerated). High-wage half-trained carpenters had a need for tools that would
reduce the skill needed just to use them; and both half-trained and European-
trained immigrant carpenters would have money for expensive tools. In England,
with an effective apprenticeship system and less new construction, there were
more skilled carpenters chasing fewer and lower-paid jobs and so a higher price
for a tool that required less skill had much less appeal than in America. So
more-expensive metal planes found their niche only where they made a major
difference, in the very highest-quality work or among workmen who aspired to the
highest quality. In a way this is just baack to "British workmen bought mitre
planes because they were more conservative," but it gives a bit of subtlety to
how and why they were more conservative. Just speculation, but worth thinking
about.
Tom ConroyBerkeley

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