OldTools Archive
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262815 | Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Concern for the list |
GG's An issue that has bothered me for a while is the lack of traffic on the list. Is it just me and my service, or is there a lack of posts? I've been on the list for a number of years and can remember when we would have 40 or 50 posts a day. Questions,comments, projects, etc. Lately, I am only getting a few posts now and then. So the question is, have we lost interest? Do we not have enough time? Are we jaded and don't want to discuss new/old topics. I honestly miss the banter between Paddy, Tom Bruce, Ralph,Scott and all the others that used to post and the stories of Brimfield told by Sandy. Recognizing, of course, that we have lost some of the old timers, it just seems there is less interest. Do we not need new/old tools? And what happened to Flea Market Monday when there were several folks that had tools to sell or needed to buy? Perhaps we have talked out the issues? Perhaps we have no new Galoots that need knowledge? Perhaps I'm just reading something in here that isn't present? Hope I haven't caused any alarm in the ranks. Bruce Z. Des Moines, IA |
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262816 | Michael Parrish <michaelparrish@o...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
I am a noob galoot, so feel free to dismiss my opinion. But I suspect it is related to the mailing list format. It is nostalgic, sure - I remember being on many mailing lists in the late 1990s. But today, I think the modern discussion forum is a much better way to carry on these kinds of conversations, to share photos, as well as to archive everything for later searches. Garagejournal's forums are a vibrant example. I honestly wish the Old Tools list could transition over to garagejournal as a subforum, sometimes. Maybe that would kill the charm of the Porch, I dunno. My 2c. --- Michael Parrish michael-parrish.com -------- Original message -------- From: Bruce Zenge |
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262817 | Bob Page | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
There are so many more venues for discussion and sharing these days than when the Old Tools list was started. There are the big social media sites like Facebook and Instagram. Some of the Facebook tool groups have over 30,000 members. It is very easy to post discussion items and photos. There are numerous other private web sites and forums too. I first joined the Old Tools list about two years ago because I heard about the wealth of information freely shared by the members. Let's just say that many of the folks on Facebook and the like are highly knowledgeable, but the Porch is the place to go if one really wants to learn something. Bob PageIn da U.P. of Michigan On Saturday, August 12, 2017, 10:20:14 AM EDT, Michael Parrish |
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262818 | Brent Parkin <brent@e...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
GG's, I have been on the list since the late 90's. Not the part of the first wave of Galoots, but the second wave I would think. I too remember when the banter was fast and heavy. I used to get the posts at work and it kept me sane during the work day. Lol. But I have noticed now that sometimes days go by without a post. But I have noticed many of us also belong to groups like Lumberjocks or Facebook groups like the Unplugged woodworkers. I think that despite the charm of our old mailing list format, sometimes the list is just awkward to work with. I know when I finished my tool chest last year I would have liked to show it off, but dealing with pictures or videos is annoying at best. The other pseudo porches make it easy and laziness can get the better of you. So I posted about the chest and other stuff I have been making on those sights. (Guess I better start polishing the spittoon). But even though the times have changed on the WEB, this group is by far the kindest friendliest group overall (Although Lumberjocks is a nice spot too). Spots like the FB groups often have arguments and nasty posts popping up. They get sorted by their Admins, but it just doesn't happen like that here. The list may be a little slower.... so am I these days. But it is the spot that feels like home. It will always be my home spot for Woodworking. I sure do wish photo posts could happen but hey you can't have it all. Regards, Brent Parkin Regina, SK Canada eh! |
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262820 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
Like Brent, I am from the late 90’s. And yes it is sad that there aren’t a ton of discussion going on at once. But like my flip phone, I like this format - it is the only woodworkig forum that I am on. Ed Minch |
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262821 | Charles Driggs <cdinde@v...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
Bruce wrote > Perhaps we have talked out the issues? Perhaps we have no new Galoots > that need knowledge? Perhaps I'm just reading something in here that > isn't present? > Bruce, you are hardly the only person to have noticed the change. I’ve been on the Porch for almost as long as it has existed, and the change you speak of does exist. We have indeed lost a lot of the ‘old timers’, and traffic is down. To some extent I think it is because we have covered so many issues and come up with new websites full of information that are now being maintained, along with the Archives. I do think that another of the contributing issues is that we lost several people who were prolific sources of postings, either to the great flea market in the sky or because they moved on to new interests. Those folks generated a lot of traffic, a lot of information flowed as a result, and some generated a lot of laughter. Unfortunately flea markets / boot sales are a diminished source of finds & stories now that e*ay is a go-to place for many tool sellers, but at least there still are some great individual sources for the tools we can use or collect online, and participating here. You may have noticed too that many of the regulars posting over the last year are newbies in the context of the age of the Porch, and I see that as a good thing. I’m not surprised that many of our new participants are posting questions we old hands have hashed out in the past, sometimes in long exchanges of ideas. But let’s face it, there has been a lot of opportunity to do that over the last two decades, and much of it is found the Archives. Unfortunately, the Archives doesn’t go back all the way, so some very good discussions are not in it. The obvious question I was wondering a year ago was ”Is the Porch dying off?”, and I came to the conclusion the answer was ‘No', many of us old hands are just watching the questions being posted and responding only when we feel we have something to add. The Porch has hit a Mature stage of development. I hope this group will keep going as long as Chris can keep hosting it, and if he can’t do that anymore, someone else hopefully will step up. After all, he wasn’t the first host by any means. The Porch is just too good a resource for many people, including those who are yet to discover their interest in either ‘old tools’ or the Porch. Charlie Driggs Newark DE |
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262825 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
The Porch is our family. Its not a temporary, wander past for a moment, kind of a place. It may have something to do with the format and tradition. Because unlike the hurry up and post venue of other webgroups, the listserv format give a guy time to think a little more and work out his thoughts. But in the end, its really the inmates here. Its where we share what we can of tools and woodworking with each other, but its also where we bring our greatest triumph and tragedy in life. Like family we don't have to see each other every single day to still love and be loved. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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262828 | Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
Valid points, all. Guess I'll quit wondering and just enjoy what we still have. I do believe we are family and many have done some nice things for others over the years. I suppose a lot of things have changed over the last 20 years or so. Me included. Best to y'all and keep up the good work. Bruce Z. Des Moines, IA |
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262829 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
On 2017-08-12 9:58 AM, Ed Minch wrote: > Like Brent, I am from the late 90’s. And yes it is sad that there aren’t a ton of discussion going on at once. But like my flip phone, I like this format - it is the only woodworkig forum that I am on. > > Ed Minch Me too. I like that it's in my face, I don't have to go looking to see what's new. I archive the stuff I want to keep - pdfs sometimes, or just in an email folder. I may push those up to gmail sometime, a round to-it. FWIW Don -- On Jan. 26, 2016, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT) ruled that the Government of Canada racially discriminates against 165,000 First Nations children. “Until all of us have made it, none of us have made it.” - Rosemary Brown, the first Black woman elected to a Canadian legislature |
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262830 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
Examine the growth of YouTube, Pinterest, fakebook......there is even galootery on twitter. This feels like a call to recruit younger Galoots to the list..... Sent from my iPhone |
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262833 | Brent A Kinsey <brentpmed@c...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
I have only been following or on the list for the last 10 or 15 years, new by galoot standards. But I can tell you that there is only one other group that I would stop and drop a tool in the mail to one of them without thinking twice. The women and men of this group are the most thoughtful, kindest and most generous group I have had the pleasure to associate with. There is a sense of-- well, security-- for lack of a better term. This format helps maintain the extended family feel and certainly culls the trolls and flamers. I too wish pictures were easier, but that is a small inconvenience for me. Many times I read posts and just absorb knowledge, feeling I don't have enough experience to offer meaningful comment. The few areas where I have experience I share with the usual YMMV. I suspect that is part of the reason why there is less banter at times, many are absorbing from those of you with vastly more experience. I also suspect that many times things that are thought to be common knowledge are left unsaid, and newer Galoots may miss out on pearls of wisdom. Ok, off to sharpen something... Brent Sent from my iPad |
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262834 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
Bruce and all, I love the list and it’s history and it’s content. The knowledge here would no doubt be beneficial to many people not yet on it. In my opinion, It’s harder to find people willing to endure the text-only aspect of the list. If that aspect ever changes (to a Facebook group or forum software for instance) then the potential audience is vastly greater. At the beginning the text-only character favored good writing and was a low bar for all. It was limiting in that you had to have internet access and an email address, but that was the only limits. Slow internet? No prob. Computer didn’t handle pics or video? Not an issue. As time has gone on, it seems reasonable that an even higher bar would still not exclude anyone. Speaking only for myself, I would love us to not fade away simply because we have fond memories of our text only roots. Mine are very very fond. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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262835 | Phil Koontz <phil.koontz@g...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
HI all-- Long ago, there was a quip that still means a lot to me about the OT list. "If you want content, write content." The point, in case that's not obvious, is that we're all responsible for what's on the list. It's a small point, but it prompts me to write. Hope I still have something to say. I've been on the OT list since (IIRC) 1996, and still read a few selected notes every day. My life and interests have changed a lot over the years, so as a kind of apology for posting less often, here's a brief outline of those 20-some years with the list. As a rank newbie, with my first IBM PC and Hotmail, I started my first wood working shop in the closed back porch of our old farmhouse in Kansas. With almost no wood working tools, my first interest was acquisition. In an admission of shame, I recall actually breaking my first Stanley #5 (cheap metallic Jack plane, Jeff) out of sheer frustration when I smashed the hell out of a finger when the plane hooked on a knot in a piece of crappy white pine. I was glad to find the list, where people interested in wood and hand tools were eager to help us helpless novices, and even to sell tools. It was my first epiphany. It was also when I learned the word "epiphany," by the way. One of my first goals was to fill out a set of Stanley bench planes, numbers 3 through 8. I've never been one to spend a lot of money on handtools, so the exotic number 1 and 2 were well out of the scope, but I gradually settled on a preference for Type 11 Stanleys, mostly with corrugated soles. Why not--they were cheap and plentiful, and the technology was pretty much perfected a century ago. I remember a lot of humor on the list from that era. Paddy O'Deen, Gunterman, and others who don't come to my mind immediately just now. Remember the Satanley uproar about shutting down the Blood and Gore site? Esther Heller helped me out a few times with acquiring the conventional courtesy of the list--I honestly didn't know how to effectively and politely communicate by email in those days. Soon after that, I fell into a years long daily conversation with Larry Holland. At first it was about treadle lathes (he still uses one or more, I believe--I never quite got over the hump to learning the craft). That gradually evolved into a folksy thing that I looked forward to every day. We eventually met in person, during my move from Kansas to Alaska in 2000. **Hi Larry--I miss those times. Glad to see your occasional notes.** During my last few years in Kansas, I started a small blacksmith and metal working shop, mainly so-as to start making my own tools. It was a fun time. I bought my first forge from an Amish antique shop in Yoder Kansas, acquired a post drill, joined a blacksmithing association, and learned to make Damascus (actually, pattern-welded) steel. One of my first knives was made from an old Harley Davidson primary chain. When we moved, I packed the smithy up into a cargo box that weighed 5600 pounds. That was more than the rest of our freight combined. My first treadle lathe, made at and with Larry's constant encouragement, was mortised by hand from 4 x 4" green oak salvaged from some extra nice pallets. It sorta worked, and I made a few things with it, including some Osage orange mallets that I gave away to the winner of the Bottom Feeder Challenge. Does anyone else remember that? It's in the archive somewhere. When we arrived in Alaska, our home was a tiny shack, and the WW tools mostly stayed in crates, or way back there in Kansas. Our son Ben eventually moved to Alaska, and brought most of the remaining tools with him. We landed in a great place, and have prospered here in many ways. Galena, Alaska is way off the road system, deep in the interior of Alaska. It's about halfway between Fairbanks and Nome on the north bank of the Yukon River. There's a lot more to say about where we live, but I've already said most of it, in a blog <http://pdknz.livejournal.com/> that I kept for ten years or more.. One of my regrets about getting older is that I've let the blog lapse for a long time. Alaska has been good to us, but my interests and work have changed over the years. There was a while that I tried to make a livelihood as a blacksmith, and ended up doing production work on a single product--holdfasts. That lasted for, I dunno, five years or so, and I made hundreds of them. I never got very good as a blacksmith, but holdfasts are dead easy, and they were a fad among wood workers for a while. I eventually used up my right arm on the job, and suddenly quit; literally between one hammer swing and the next one. Some of the older list members will recall my long time accomplice Jake the Russian, who was a working partner in our enterprise, which we variously called Galena Village Blacksmith or the Galena Blacksmith Guild. The guild sort of evolved into a steam boat project. That's all in the blog. You could look it up-- Jake is still around, living in Galena now; still more or less a squatter, although he has a house with a roof now, and no longer lives in a shack dug into the permafrost. His arm has started to go out too, so his blacksmithing has begun to taper off. He makes his own fuel--cooks charcoal from our local white spruce. His most recent projects have been mostly forge welded reproductions of interesting old axes. My metalwork has evolved to fabrications and lathe work. It's kinda fun, sometimes useful, and much easier on my right shoulder. As we have lived in Alaska, my wood work evolved from furniture to carpentry, and then to log work and tool making. Son Ben and I have been logging most summers over the years, and we built his house, a recreational log cabin, and our house, plus one for a local friend. The log work is round logs, full scribed, dovetailed, and worked green. The first cabin was in 2003 and 2004. Ben's house was finished in 2006, and SWMBO/my house in 2008. The more recent friend's house is framed with lumber that was milled from green trees. Tim set a local record by starting and finishing his house in a single summer. We cut the first tree on June 3, and they had a fire in the stove during September. I milled the lumber, and Tim learned carpentry on the job. There have been a lot of sequels to that house project, to the point that now, Tim is in charge of a local logging company, and recently got his contractor's license to bid on a new office project. Life is interesting--I remember clearly when Tim bought his first tool--a 28 ounce Stanley Fat Max claw hammer. So, in conclusion (I always am glad to hear that phrase in a long speech)--The OT list has been part of my personal history for about 20 years. From newbie, to the acquisition phase, then the toolmaking thing, home building and log work, and recently into mostly-retirement, I feel like you guys have been friends and co-conspirators. The list is changing, of course. We all are. PK Home on the Yukon. |
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262836 | Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
This discussion comes up every few years, but for me, the "List" is like a warm blanket on a cold night. It is a return to a kinder, gentler time. Modern discussion list? Bleh, not for me! This format is the charm. Lower traffic? Life happens, and some move on to other interests and some have simply passed on! I may not post regularly but I check in everyday, and have learned to speak only when I know something! T.Z. Anthony M. Zaffuto, President Metaltech, Inc. 3547 Watson, Hwy. DuBois, PA (814) 375-9399 |
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262837 | "Brent Parkin" <brent@e...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
This whole conversation had me making the trip through the archives. There have been some fun times on the list. Happily there will still be more. Just different. Anybody remember how when Pete and Patrick announced the IT Saws, we all lost our minds getting on the list to order them? Remember how everyone would post their IT serial number on the bottom of their posts. Then Eddie Sirotech started making Adria saws and we jumped to get those as well. I have one of Petes and one of Eddies saws still. They will only leave my shop when the auction happens once I'm gone. Remember Michael Lewis' stories about the old guy he worked with named Max? I met Michael and the famous Steve Lamantia once in Seattle when I was out that way on business. Remember needing to aquire YB planes? Great folks!! All the Galoots are. I tip my original Stealth hat to you all. And each time I walk in the shop and see my Galoot bumper sticker it brings a smile. Keep on keeping on you knuckle draggin Neanderthals. Brent Parkin Regina, SK Canada eh! |
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262838 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
Oh Man I had forgotten when Stanley shut down Blood and Gore We were all so outraged. But the lawyers were saying just lay low and we will work it out............. Until that failed. I got a private 4 word email from Patrick.... Smithers, release the hounds......... hahahah And we all pelted Stanley with every indignity and threat of lifetime retaliation we could think up. Galoots up in arms!! Torches and pitchforks!! And it worked ahhh we've seen some times alright yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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262839 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑08‑12 | Re: Concern for the list |
Thanks for that Phil - you have led an interesting life and have contributed a great deal to the list. I feel the same way you do Ed Minch |
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262840 | Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
Gracious Galoots, I would simply like to say, as a relative newcomer from 2006, that this was the place that helped me become a hand-tool only woodworker. I simply don't think that I could have enjoyed what I've done and developed the understanding I have about woodworking tools without the generous, knowledgeable people of this group. Yes, posting photos is clunky and sometimes traffic is not of direct interest to me, but when I want to share something with people who get it, here's where I come. When I have a banal, oft-asked question that I need an answer for, I know I can ask it here (or search the Archives) and get a genuinely good answer. I, too, miss the wonderful stories that more regularly populated the list and know that there are too many folks who just aren't here to participate anymore. I'm a member of a Facebook spoon-carving group that has considerable traffic and I can ask questions there, but here I can peruse the answers to my questions without searching through endless threads. So, in closing, thanks everyone. Let's just keep rolling along. This is a great place to be. Regards, Dwight |
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262843 | Nuno Souto <wizofoz@i...> | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
I still receive the emails from the list and won't stop my membership. But my life has changed dramatically and the health is not what it used to be. My short vision in particular has almost gone, so my woodworking nowadays (mostly wood carving) is much reduced. I also subscribe to the Facebook Hand Tools group which I find interesting for casual looks. But I still tremendously enjoy reading what others are doing here and what the latest trends and ideas are. So please keep it up folks. For the sake of old farts like me and also for the young ones who may join in future, like I did so many years ago! -- Cheers Nuno Souto wizofoz@i... |
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262844 | James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
I've been here since the days of rec.woodworking. I pretty much lurk now because my main interest is making things - techniques, methodology, etc. The majority of the content now is collector oriented, so I tend to skip those posts (so of course, I never reply to them). I still scan the list every day looking for the occasional bits that match my interests, but the vast majority of the traffic I simply glance at the title, and move on... -James |
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262845 | Archie England | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
I'm in a somewhat similar mode as James, adapting a few of his statements (bold print is mine): I pretty much lurk now because my skills are still not nearly as well developed as so many of you guys. The majority of the content now is collector oriented, so I tend to skip those posts (so of course, I never reply to them). I still scan the list every day looking for the occasional bits that match my interests, but the vast majority of the traffic I simply glance at the title, and move on... -James Archie |
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262846 | Archie England | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
Well, the bold did not show up, where I stated that "my skills are not nearly as well developed..." And, one more comment (sorry to reply to my own post--bad form): I follow SawMill Creek, Woodnet, Wood Central, and Woodtalk online, as well as checking out this list daily. Every "list" appears much less engaged than in the past few years. Woodtalk handtools is virtually dead. SMC and WoodCentral have the most traffic, but it's nowhere near previous years activity. So, I suspect that we're experiencing what everyone else is, too. From: Archie England via OldTools |
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262848 | Patrick Olguin | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
GGs, As one of the durned idjits who started this list, I would say that things change, but some traditions don't.. maybe? I can certainly see the value in a multi-media capable, thread-friendly forum. I still like this. I actually have read more posts in the last couple of years than, say, from the late 2000's to mebbe 2014. Life, drastic changes in how my various email platforms work (for instance, Yahoo doesn't care that hundreds of thousands of subscribers can't access their paid accounts via POP3/gmail), and possibly the feeling that I've told all my fun stories (a total cop-out, of course) have greatly diminished my participation. This doesn't mean I don't love old tools, nor oldtools. I'm facebook friends with a few Galoots, but I'm very circumspect about blending the two worlds of my love/respect for woodDorking - and the gentle, supportive nature of discussions, and what I've really become, which is a cranky old hippie, who uses a LOT of salty language in describing the vagaries of non-woodworking topics. It's not very pretty. Necessity, and the harsh reality of too few hours in the day has just about eliminated any furniture-making for me. Most of my hand-tooling skills have been directed towards keeping the lights on. I had a vary adventurous 2016, where I was disable from the day-typing job (bi-lateral carpal tunnel syndrome), and then subsequently laid-off (try finding a day job when you're 55+... how the hell did that happen?). Turns out I'm reasonably efficient (spell that profitable) at doing house wiring, plumbing, flooring, and just your basic remodeling skills. The famous Gerstner chest, and IT saws accompany me to my various gigs, but most work is accomplished with an array of air/electrical powered tools that'd founder a medium cruiser. I did recently bag a serviceable old jack plane from Tony Seo, just because it was affordable and I felt like having it :-). It's still in the shipping carton. And now I have to run off and finish installing a tankless water heater. Grateful for all of you. Best,Paddy p.s. I still use shellac, and make sure my alcohol is fresh! From: Archie England via OldTools |
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262851 | Glen Canaday <gcanaday@g...> | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
I am not so salt as ...really most of the list, but there are some of us youngers (I'm 43) who, watching by the wayside, have firsthand witnessed the death of handwritten language and thus its spoken form (attn millennials: if you never use an apostrophe again in your life you will be correct somewhere between 80-90% of the time). My grandfather didn't care much for craftsmanship save that it was affordable and didn't look like total crap, and my dad thus had no compass with which to direct me. But I still found a way and my daughter will have a rough direction to gaze when she is of an age to appreciate the doings of things. I'll see to it. She's two now. I have a suggestion. At many a M-WTCA meeting, I have overheard the greys (my parents) complaining about the millennials (my children) in ways I don't recall hearing when I was younger. Usually this is over the free donut at certain tables only and not when a sale is at stake. They even had the gall to do so in the physical presence of my younger wife who is a member of that generation (she no longer frequents auxiliary events). Instead of complaining, I would like to suggest to them to throw off their stodgy demeanor and embrace the passage of the torch. The Millennials are what we have to work with to keep the flame burning brightly and withholding the details because of possible hipster mentality and dress only serves to hasten the demise of crafts and the implements of creation. Check ebay (and etsy!) for lamps made of Millers Falls planes for a facepalm-worthy adventure. Heart in right place, brain in left field. I think it can be corrected, though there is no saving that plane. Thankfully this attitude toward younger would-be craftspeople is nearly entirely absent from the Porch and that I only see it when in smacking distance from mean ol' grandmas. I absolutely believe that the Porch is worth mentioning, profusely, in those places that the younger and less literate persons may frequent. We can teach them to read! I haven't any clue how to go about posting YouTube videos but the idea has crossed my mind many times. G in the north |
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262853 | Brandon <brandoch52@g...> | 2017‑08‑13 | Re: Concern for the list |
Many years ago I wrote an opinion piece to Gristmill regarding the graying of the association and the dangers of irrelevance as younger members did not attend meetings due to work and family responsibilities. The response was zip. In the EAIA I was asked to create a new website. I brought on bill Rainford to do the technical work. At various meetings I was met with considerable pushback about why we needed something new. I instituted Shavings being moved to a digital delivery and got flack for going to a mailing list format for delivery. And so on until I resigned as chair of the web committee and turned it over to Bill. I did manage to produce the Chronicle DVD and the Jacobs Stanley book thanks to Toby Hall running interference. You can see where this is leading. There is stiff refusal to accept change. That's a large reason why I moved my focus to Facebook. On fb I've run into a generational conflict from both ages. So what's to do? Mailing lists are viewed as archaic technology by many. Bulletin boards are unkown to many. The immediacy of fb, instagram, Pinterest, tumblr etc is what many want. Then there is the problem of the cultish followings of net personalities in the Woodworking and history communities. Either you are for or you against. On fb I've created a number of groups, some public, some closed, some secret. The public groups are the most difficult to manage, not surprisingly. My take is that it would be good to have a closed Oldtools group open only to list membership at first. We did this when leaving rec.woodworking. As bugs were worked out the list was opened to new members under strict supervision. I run a group The Doctrine Of Handy Works that is hyper focused much as the oldtools list is. So far so good as we are careful who is accepted. perhaps a fb group adjunct to the list as a means to segue formats is now the most sensible way to preserve and maintain the list? |
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262852 | Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
This topic comes up every few years as us Galoots worry about the decline in traffic and content on The List. I have noticed that the volume has dropped off even faster the past year or two. I assumed it was because we lost Jim Thompson who was probably single-handedly responsible for half the content on the list these past ten years. I haven't been actively posting to The List at all lately, mostly due to a lack of free time. I'm still involved with old tools, more than ever actually. I just don't have any time to get in the shop and make stuff. My woodworking consists mainly of restoring, tuning, and testing tools. It's fun but not noteworthy enough to post to the list. There are new technologies that the younger generations gravitate to instead of email. I feel like web forums came and went.A couple of years ago I finally I quit following the few forums I was a member of for a number of reasons. There area lot of Facebook groups (maybe too many) that offer a variety of content of all sorts and quality. Occasionally you'll see a Porch Alumnus pop up on one of the Facebook groups. I saw Bill Taggert over in the Hand Tool Woodworking group the other day! Twitter is fine, but it's mostly tweets linking to FB or IG posts, blog articles, etc. The medium doesn't exactly lend itself to conversation.. On the other hand, Instagram has some truly amazing hand tool related content. I'm kicking myself for being late to that party as I feel like I'm still catching up finding new people to follow. I'm fascinated and inspired by the work that people like Richard Arnold, Freddy Roman, Abel Rios, Chris Vesper, Anneofalltrades, Peter Follansbee, and others put on IG. If you don't know who these people are you should really check out their work. And those are just the folks that I've found so far.. there's so much out there. Anyhow, long story, short.. it shouldn't be a surprise that OldTools traffic is declining. We haven't seen many new members at all in the past 5-10 years and many of the members we have are getting older or finding other hobbies. If you want to fix the lack of content then post something! Just don't ask what the nib is for unless you want to polish that spittoon over there in the corner, and it's pretty nasty right now. Josh in CT |
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262854 | Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
James wrote: |
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262855 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
> On Aug 13, 2017, at 19:29 , Derek Cohen |
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262856 | Steve Jones <stjones@k...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
GGs; Been hanging around the Porch long enough to buy Paddylac and make a Guntershave. How about a private oldtools Facebook group with an oldtools list bio as a requirement for admission? Just de-lurking long enough to think out loud. Feel free to pass the spittoon. Steve in Kokomo On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Derek Cohen |
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262857 | Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
I'll preface this by saying I belong to both the MWTCA and EAIA and probably will be a member for life. Having said that, the "greying problem" can't be a surprise to either of them. Both organizations are virtually irrelevant to the younger generations interested in hand tools today. There is a _tremendous_ amount of interest in hand tools among younger people (say 40 and younger). The thing is, these guys and girls want tools to use in their shops. The demand and market for user hand tools is higher than ever. These people couldn't care less about collecting. In fact, collectors are often vilified as hoarders.. greedy batards who are keeping all those good tools for themselves. They don't want to be collectors. Have you read the EAIA or MWTCA periodicals from the perspective of a hand tool woodworker not interested in collecting? There's nothing there of interest to them. You might as well send them the AARP magazine. Have you looked at the schedule of events at a MWTCA meet from the perspective of a woodworker? There's not much draw there other than the tailgate sale. The thing is, the younger generations are going to be the next generation of tool collectors once they gain some age, maybe some extra income, and time. Both the EAIA and MWTCA would do well to draw them in with some content that actually interests them while continuing to discuss the history and development these of tools so the collecting seed is sewn and maybe they start buying rare tools and attending the MWTCA meets later in life. I think about this a lot, as you can tell. I had more to say but I'm running out of steam and the Sox just tied it up so my attention is elsewhere ;) Josh in CT |
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262858 | Brandon <brandoch52@g...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
Here here! Well put. When, on the past, attempts have been made to expand the scope of both groups the response has been that status quo is the choice. The decades long research into the histories of tools and tool makers reached a zenith and is now in decline. I can see this in the scope and quality of articles in both Association journals as compared to the content over their respective lives. It is a sad truth that any community can outlive its relevance if internal growth is stagnant. Given that, what's next? So I'll put the question: if a Facebook group was created expressly for the oldtools list, following the precepts and restrictions of the list, would this be of interest? On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:21 PM Joshua Clark |
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262859 | Guy in Florida <mill15716athollow@g...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
I own a group on FB called Antique Woodworking Hand Tools – Post and Boast that as of my writing this has 4,122 members. Most every time I go on the site, there are a dozen or so people that want to join. However, most members DO NOT post, do they read the postings or look at the photos? I don't know. It is group is for posting photographs of before and after tools, those woodworking hand tools that are gritty and restored to spiffy. The valuable tool you find at an estate sale for a give away price and the unusual or “what is it” tools. Perhaps somewhat corny but some of us like it. I myself am not a millennial but rather a generation Xer or the very very tail end of the baby boomers. I remember my father (WW2 generation) thought our generation was sh!t and made no bones about saying it! This didn't help matters and made things worse. When I was in 5th grade, I had a teacher that unlike the other teachers in previous lower grades made history interesting. It is mostly because of him that I have an interest in history and I dedicated my first book to him. He once brought us to a lecture by an older gentleman that was a local historian and he stated, he was visiting local elementary schools because one of us children would take his place in the future. One of those children was me! Perhaps if Old Tools made themselves more relevant to the millennials and the largest generation group on this list (whom ever they are), it might attract new members and more posts, No, I have no idea these changes could be. Getting back to the group in question, I think it can be summed up that: 1. There is a lot of competition from other groups (I'm probably quilty of taking posts away from Old Tools). 2. Some members have talked themselves out. 3. Members have drifted away from Old Tools, because of, illness, death, other interests and SENSORY OVERLOAD. Just my $0.02 Brother Lou |
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262860 | Brandon <brandoch52@g...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
And I was the owner of antique tools buy sell and trade , a fb group now nearing 12,000 most of whom don't post but lurk. I abdicated recently. Browser based forums, fb groups and oldtools list. Following oldtools on an iPhone is difficult whereas following on a computer is easy in comparison. Just now I'm on the iPhone. The recent multiplication of antique tools and traditional crafts fb groups seems populated by the same active people which is why I've pulled back from most and focused on The Doctrine Of Handy Works group. Giving oldtools selective promotion may be a way to change the tenor of the list with new membership so I agree with that idea. But overall it's a conundrum I'm puzzling over On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:29 AM Guy in Florida |
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262862 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
My presence on FB is an alternate name and a 1990's passport photo. I trust Suckerbers and his minions about like I trust Sand Fleas, Australian brown snakes, and mosquitoes The internet has too damn much information on me is as and a Bio on FB for the Phishing scammers would not be something I'd participate in |
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262864 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
On 2017-08-14 7:17 AM, Cliff wrote: > My presence on FB is an alternate name and a 1990's passport photo. I > trust Suckerbers and his minions about like I trust Sand Fleas, > Australian brown snakes, and mosquitoes The internet has too damn > much information on me is as and a Bio on FB for the Phishing > scammers would not be something I'd participate in I second that! IMO, FB sucks. Don |
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262865 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
Wow I don't post a lot, heck I don't even particularly read a lot. I pick and choose topics that presently interest me. I collect sites from other posts (many now sadly defunct) for reference. And I hate to admit but sometimes i enjoy the torts and retorts - esp if the moms have to shut things down. Unfortunately without gladiators or public executions sometimes the conflicts here are all we get in way of drama (or at least tool related drama) What I do like is the old names and some of the old faces that I have met. I'm not personal friends with a lot but I have met my share, have exchanged galootaclaus gifts with many over the years and probably forgotten a few people too, only to be reminded of them when I am thinking a thought or telling a story of something I did long ago. Its then, with the recollection of that thought that my memory is triggered of a long ago galoot - one who moved on in life or in death. I really hate the old technology that we use, but understand that there's a lot who won't or can't come into the new. These old rusty and dusty faces are the guys I trust. I trust their opinions, I trust their morals with respect to gifts, to exchanges of tools, and with money. This group has been a big part of who I am – even if that’s mostly to you all as a lurker. I have lived in New Hampshire and in my early early days learned of Cranes from this list, I moved almost 20 years ago to GA and learned of places to go and things to see from this list. I have had and raised kids and been divorced and remarried all while on this list. I think the collective “WE" was at least in part what has kept St Roy on TV and helped get all those DVDs out to the world. I would hate to lose the old guys, would love to have more pics but if not I am willing to put up with the glitches, and know anyone interested in tools will hear of us. And out of that population those who really are interested and consider it worth it - they will join. I would love new links and new pictures but with that comes a lot of new faces, some would be welcome, some would be great but a lot would be noise. There likely will be a day when one of us has to turn the lights out, but its these names and these guys…including the newbies that stay that we need to keep together. Sorry didn’t really contribute much in the way of suggestions, but I do get both sides. Scott in Duluth |
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262866 | Charlie Driggs <cdinde@v...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
Brandon, My thoughts on this are mixed, but I recognize that we might need to change platforms if this group, and its relatively unique collective behavior, is to thrive for years to come. It seems to me that we have two ways to explore the points you've made: A) if you could lay out options and maybe list the key positives and negatives so most of us would understand them; B) you suggest a specific approach and explain why you think it might be the best path to preserve this group yet leave the opportunity open for new participation. I may or may not be representative of the group in that I have intentionally avoided Facebook, Twitter, etc because of known personal security / identity theft instances. I'm reasonably comfortable with the current structure of OldTools, but if our type of platform will effectively become obsolete then perhaps it is time for migration to another platform that hopefully preserves access to the Archives. IT is not my area of expertise, but I know others in our group have strong skills in this area. We ought to be consciously be thinking about whether it is time for another migration, and Chris should be engaged in the conversation because of his volunteer role as Listmom and host for many years. If there are good reasons to consider this question now, then perhaps we need a SurveyMonkey kind of vote on options & preferences once we understand them? That's my reaction, let's see what others think. Charlie Sent from my iPhone |
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262867 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
> On Aug 14, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Charlie Driggs |
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262869 | Kenneth Stagg <kenneth.stagg@g...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:03 PM, William Ghio |
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262870 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
Maybe we can keep what we have and improve it. Two ideas: 1. Does the technology exist today that would allow folks to send attachments, but the server side would strip the attachments resize to reasonable dimensions and place a link instead? Surely it does. 2. Perhaps a tier system where one could choose to receive the emails WITH the media or rich formatting, OR they could choose to receive the emails with links instead. It’s like an upgrade to the individual/digest toggle. I’d much rather pay Chris for hosting. We get to keep text only folks. We get to keep slow internet folks. We get to keep limited data cap folks. All of them would only download what they click same as now. Folks who already know how to host a pic and send a link could still do so. Folks who already know how to encode and host a video and send a link could still do so. We would add the glorious and easy ability for folks to be able to share pics. Some would rather see a pic than a thousand words of my blather anyway. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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262871 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Kenneth Stagg |
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262874 | "Dennis Heyza" <michigaloot@c...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
As someone who has been around since nearly the beginning (June of '96), guess I'll toss in my two cents... I was very active for the first five or six years, then not so much, primarily because jobs I had were very demanding for both time and travel - something that continues to this day. It's not that I wasn't interested, it was more that by the time I saw a question, it had been answered multiple times. I also didn't get much shop time either. But I still try to read the emails at least once every couple days and often wish I could offer more than the occasional "very nice." I for one, hope that Oldtools continues in something resembling its current format despite my lack of participation, which could well change after I retire early next year. For anyone who cares, here is this geezer's "why I love the Porch" list followed by a couple nitpicks. 1. It's not commercial. Facebook, et al are money making machines and you must "pay" in some way, shape or form for using it. 2. It's genteel. In spite of the fact this list is primarily composed of men, the language and tenor used is mostly appropriate for a child, so long as they can't find Natalie's postings in the archives. And on the rare occasions that someone has let their personal opinions about subjects other than tools and woodworking get in the way, they are quickly stifled by the ListMom(s). 3. The Archives. While the search capabilities are not as good as before, there is a wealth of knowledge there that is fairly easily found. Try that with Facebook. 4. OT Terms: What else needs to be said? 5. Camaraderie: I can't tell you how many friends I've made as a result of this list. On the other hand, I wouldn't dare friend anyone on FB who I didn't already know. 6. Almost zero spamming, phishing, scamming, trolling, etc. Bet I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen malicious postings get onto the list. 7. Galootaclaus: I participate only occasionally because things interfere, but try that on Facebook or any other forum. Nitpicks 1. I miss FMM. Remember the anticipation? Spending most of that Monday morning doing little at work other than read FS posts? Yes, people like Pat Leach and Josh Clark are out there, but there was lot of people selling stuff they found at garage and estate sales for very reasonable prices. It was amazing what a newbie with limited funds could find for very little money. And there were OT terms (try that with *Bay). 2. Wish we could add attachments. Yes, I understand why we can't and accept it. Yes, you can put links in your post. Unfortunately, those links don't always exist in perpetuity. I'd love to be able to look at photos people posted years ago from the archives. One last thought... Somehow over the years OldTools became so focused on old tools, often venturing for into collector territory, that those who were more interested in making stuff and learning technique were left out. To that, let me quote from Tom Bruce's original announcement regarding this list, "... We endeavour to give SATISFACTION, EDIFICATION, and ENLIGHTENMENT to those who have a BURNING INTEREST in OLD TOOLS, RESTORATION, TRADITIONAL WOODCRAFT and the elusive problems of HOW THEM OLD DUDES DID IT..." So, feel free (and please do) post about techniques, historical references, furniture examples whether you made them or in a museum, and ask questions about how people approach challenges you have. This isn't just about mystery tools and how much is my burfl is worth. Okay, one more last thought... THANKS TO ALL THE LISTMOMS, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE! Dennis Heyza - who is thrilled about the topic of next year's symposium at CW and is checking daily for registration to open Utica, MI IT #191 (stuck that in for fun) |
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262876 | Glen Canaday <gcanaday@g...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
I'm mostly a lurker with a posted bio. I read a lot and subscribe only to the digest. Email on a phone is atrocious mostly because it is so difficult to do any text editing. I have gone to great efforts to avoid quoting the entire digest but to no avail - nowadays on the rare occasion that I post I copy the subject of the appropriate thread and just compose a new message to the whole list. I personally think that the mailing list approach, while obsolete, is wonderful. I wonder if what we need isn't a move to another platform but something else entirely...like maybe a way to integrate the list itself with some sort of texting-like or long-format twitter technology? Something that takes the list as it is and presents it in a messenger-like format for those who have grown used to instant gratification? Think of it as an app for a mobile device that sends an actual email, and accepts and displays mail from the list as if it were a text message. No clue how to integrate photo sharing without a dedicated server. Essentially ..no new house, just a new hole cut for a shiny new front door? Only thinking out loud. Glen in the north |
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262877 | galoot@l... | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
Quoting Brandon |
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262879 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑08‑14 | Re: Concern for the list |
Have you all noticed the irony of discussing how little traffic there is on the list generating the most traffic we have had in a while. And if photos of any sort help, how about this - a look at harvesting guitar wood Guitar tops are traditionally made of spruce, and there are a lot of spruces that will work - some are made of pine. Trees are cut, then the tops are split and sawn out immediately, They will dry in a couple of months with no splitting because there is so much surface area for the thickness. In fact the wood is so thin that a guitar reacts to humidity in a few hours. https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/12803247195/in/album-72157641582124835/ There is text below each picture Ed Minch |
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262882 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
Very interesting. Since we're on the porch, and since I have a cold beer in my hands, may as well add to the conversation, right? My poor ol' dad (an upholsterer and furniture maker, among other things) hated spruce, because it would literally explode in the fireplace and shoot coals all over the damn place. Legno del diavolo, he called it (devil's wood). We typically burned hard maple and white oak cut offs (from wooden frames for couches- called "Chesterfields"- like the cigarettes- for some reason). Never made any musical instruments, but looks fascinating. BTW wet spruce rootlets are very strong and pliable- great for emergency repairs in the wilderness. Found out later that the natives had used these for canoe building for ages. Cheers from a lake side in beautiful Ontario... with plenty of very loud loons, and a beaver just swam by to examine a tree that fell into the lake from a huge storm the other day. He just took a look at it and kept going further west- lots of trees down this year. I had to cut up a bunch of beaver felled trees at the camp this past spring. Trees that got caught up on the way down, and so the little engineers couldn't drag them into the lake. Beavers btw, are surprisingly large, with heads the size of a small dog. I'm guessing the guy that swam by tonight was 30 to 40 pounds? Not sure, but he was about twice the size of my doggo ( who was going unpleasantly nuts that a rodent was boldly trespassing on 'his' territory). The beaver just looked over, nonchalant like, said 'Fffffft' in Beaver, and swam calmly onwards. Back home, a resurgence of the beaver population has devastated the city tree planting efforts in the local quarry rehabilitation project. A beaver also pulled a friends large husky to the bottom of the quarry lake last fall. Thankfully the shaken dog got away somehow, but it was a close call. Lesson learned, don't let your dog off leash near beavers while they are in the water. If they can pull trees in the water, they can pull your dog down too. That's all for now, my beers done! Cheers Claudio |
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262883 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
On 2017-08-14 5:16 PM, galoot@l... wrote: > Quoting Brandon |
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262884 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
On 2017-08-14 5:24 PM, Ed Minch wrote: > Guitar tops are traditionally made of spruce, and there are a lot of spruces that will work - some are made of pine. Trees are cut, then the tops are split and sawn out immediately, They will dry in a couple of months with no splitting because there is so much surface area for the thickness. In fact the wood is so thin that a guitar reacts to humidity in a few hours. > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/12803247195/in/album-72157641582124835/ > > There is text below each picture > > Ed Minch I know some folks don't like Flicker since they introduced ads, but at least you can just click past them! FWIW Don -- On Jan. 26, 2016, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT) ruled that the Government of Canada racially discriminates against 165,000 First Nations children. “Until all of us have made it, none of us have made it.” - Rosemary Brown, the first Black woman elected to a Canadian legislature |
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262885 | Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
Woo! I can contribute. My only uncle is a luthier and sells tone woods. He specializes in spruce tops and domestic hardwoods to replace the traditional rosewoods that are now hard to come by. I'm lucky enough to get a lot of his second quality lumber which includes a lot of eastern red spruce. It's by far my favorite wood to work with hand tools. It's harder than most softwoods. It's not stringy at all. Striking moldings on it with molding planes is sublime. It also takes paint perfectly. I use it all the time and just love it. That's all.. just thought I'd share ;) Josh |
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262886 | walt cheever <walt2che@g...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
I've mostly read and made few postings over the last 10 years. Learned a lot, and sort of moved my main interests to wood turning. Don't do fb, and other new variants, I'm willing to learn if that's what I've gotta do to keep up. If we change, it would be nice to still have folks' personality come through, as well as longer how-to posts. Suggest we keep the subject matter as wide as possible to encourage a wide group of interests participating.. I'm coming up on 80 next bd, so need a young folk to replace me soon. |
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262887 | <gtgrouch@r...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
I was about to chime in, then Dennis sent this gem. I agree with him, only he said it a lot better than I could have. Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA ---- Dennis Heyza |
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262896 | Paul Honore <lawnguy44@g...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
Interesting conversation. I've been hanging out here since the mid 90's, but I haven't posted in probably 10 years and decided it was time to let everyone I'm still here - Its good to see many names from the past still here as well. My kids tell me email is so "passay", but I still like it. Seems like everyone texts these days instead. Many memories from the past - staying up late on a Sunday nite to get first shot at the FMM guys who posted after midnight; the "meet" at the Shaker Village in Hancock Mass where Roy Underhill was doing demos, the Gunter shave, the video of Galoot shops (still have it and can probably make copies if anyone is interested), the Bill Spicer auctions in Rhode Island (there's one this coming Saturday), might even stop in at the MJD auction in a few weeks in Nashua.(assume there is still tailgating in the parking lot) In Connecticut it seems like tag sales are a thing of the unless you're looking for kids stuff. "Tools" usually means a couple of screwdrivers and worn out battery powered tools. Same with Flea markets although there is an occasional good find. I've got a lot of stuff to sell and I'll probably start doing an FS list in the next few months. My son turned out be a pretty good cabinet maker (working in Greater Boston) although he uses mostly tailed apprentices. The other thing is YouTube - videos on just about any subject that you want to try (and some you don't). Paul Honore Hebron CT |
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262898 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
What a heartwarming display. Oh Galoots, thank you I am not sure we aren't doing exactly what we are supposed to so. We have become the old men of respect. In a world of slam bam hollow, they still watch us. As long as we stick together, we influence the broader community like none else. The rise of U-tube videos and social mass marketing has all the younger guys enthralled. Instant easy access. Its not always easy to watch the masses following blindly, and not knowing anything about who we are. But even the young guys know it all comes from somewhere. The support structure underneath. We're still here, and as long as we're still here, we'll be relevant. I have nothing against facebook. I doubt I would have anything against instagram, if I knew what it was. I would be all for any Galoot extension effort anyone wanted to help us into a public direction. I have always known its better to be outright public than to try to hide out (which never works very well anyway). My number is in the book, and everyone knows my address. I still use my address as my sigline on every piece of email I write. Better, safer, to walk up main street in broad daylight. But other places will never compare to our easy old porch. Wherever I ever go, I will always come back here while I still have breath. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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262900 | "Brent Parkin" <brent@e...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
Paul mentioned having the old video of Galoot shop tours... Snip... Many memories from the past - staying up late on a Sunday nite to get first shot at the FMM guys who posted after midnight; the "meet" at the Shaker Village in Hancock Mass where Roy Underhill was doing demos, the Gunter shave, the video of Galoot shops (still have it and can probably make copies if anyone is interested) That was the old Galootavision video!! I still have my VHS tape. I used to watch it a couple of times a year until I no longer had a functioning VHS machine. I think that would be cool to push up to YouTube if possible. It was a real interesting video. Plus if anyone really wanted a copy, they could extract it off Youtube. Paul if you could do that, it would be awesome! Regards, Brent Parkin Regina, SK Canada eh! |
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262901 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
My Oldtools friends, I have already digitized a copy of said video, but I have yet to put it on youtube. Just keeping with the galoot tradition of delayed project completion. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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262905 | Tom Ellis | 2017‑08‑15 | Re: Concern for the list |
Hi Phil, I probably speak for many in saying that reading about your exploits up north has been part of my long history on the list, and made it richer. And you somehow make your writing about not writing fun to read as well. Tom Ellis…a happy user of Koontz holdfasts in much warmer Georgia Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Phil Koontz Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 2:58 PM To: Old Tools List Subject: Re: [OldTools] Concern for the list HI all-- Long ago, there was a quip that still means a lot to me about the OT list. "If you want content, write content." The point, in case that's not obvious, is that we're all responsible for what's on the list. It's a small point, but it prompts me to write. Hope I still have something to say. |
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262951 | Jim Cook <jim-cook@c...> | 2017‑08‑16 | Re: Concern for the list |
I managed to hook on to this list at close to the very beginning in 1995. I tend to lurk, because for all the opinions and knowledge I may have, I’ve always found someone else has better knowledge and has described things more eloquently. Aside from the tool knowledge which has always been wonderful, the best reasons for me to stick around have been Politics and Religion. This group has been a constant haven, free from that which can divide us. Regardless of our religion or politics, we have always remained focused on what brings us together. For that I thank all of you and I hope we can continue for at least a few more decades. Jim Cook |
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262998 | Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> | 2017‑08‑18 | Re: Concern for the list |
On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 2:14 PM Jim Cook wrote: > > This group has been a constant haven, free from that which can divide > us. Regardless of our religion or politics, we have always remained > focused on what brings us together. I think that Jim makes a very important point here. I use Facebook a lot and it is very political these days. The Porch is a haven from day to day reality. Like many others, I have less time than I used to because of kids, work, divorce, getting remarried, family tragedy, life, etc. But this group has always been here for me and I have made some great lifelong friends here. And our quaint format is part of the charm for me. Moving to another platform would be like a wrench brace or some other crazy patented tool. Might seem like a good idea, but do we really need it? And now that my life seems to be slightly less crazy than it has been for the last decade, I just might be able to clean and organize my shop and have something to contribute again, hopefully involving the stack of rived white oak I have sitting in the shady corner of my yard. Brian Welch Holden, MA Ps--hi Jim! Haven't seen you at LFOD in a while. |
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263330 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Concern for the list |
Derek: This is a month or so late; I got really busy last summer. But you wrote the following: "I’d post links to my furniture builds, but these do not seem to fit in here - they fit in better with forums, where visual information is easier to include in a post." I'd encourage you to post them. One of the treats of this list is seeing what people have made. I especially enjoy yours, Scott's, Ed M's and John's. The whole thing is, of course: a) the people, and b) the moderation. You and I , Derek, first emailed each other many years ago when a web forum operated by a major magazine was still a really interesting place (remember our island friend the high-end plane maker and his troubles with an unscrupulous American?). Later, due to a complete lack of moderation and also to budget cuts, that forum came to be overly influenced by obnoxious people, so I stopped looking in and have never gone back. That has never happened to the list. We have good people -- the flesh and bones of a good on-line community -- and good moderation that keeps out flaming and politics. Joseph Sullivan |
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263331 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Concern for the list |
SNIP ABSOLUTELY not! I do not care to join any outfit that is "free:, that means becoming a product sold to advertisers instead of a customer. Facebook in particular has a nasty reputation for screwing up privacy and having things supposedly deleted pop up again unexpectedly.... Esther END SNIP Esther is right. Facebook, by its terms and conditions, owns everything on Facebook including the so-called private posts. Everything. It analyzes, data-mines, and bundles that information for sale to whomever. I have an account so I can read other people's posts, but I never, ever put anything up. J Joseph Sullivan |
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263337 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Concern for the list |
At the risk of getting off topic...... They know more about you from one day of usage than they could learn from anything you'd post. The simple truth is that there is zero autonomy and zero privacy online, and precious little of either anywhere else. Sent from my iPhone |
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263338 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Concern for the list |
Throwing in the towel on this is just wrong. FWIW Don Schwartz On 2017-09-19 4:19 PM, Mark Pfeifer wrote: > At the risk of getting off topic...... > > They know more about you from one day of usage than they could learn from anything you'd post. > > The simple truth is that there is zero autonomy and zero privacy online, and precious little of either anywhere else. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 19, 2017, at 4:02 PM, Joseph Sullivan |
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263342 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Concern for the list |
For myself, I decided long ago that waltzing down main street in the bright light of day was the best course for me. My number is still in the book. Anyone can get my address. I've used ebay and paypal since they started the businesses, and did online business before that. Everything I ever do or say, I consider absolutely public. I don't worry about Facebook. I don't worry about nuthin. All this time I never had the slightest trouble. Not suggesting anything for everyone else. Just not worried about it, and I've been around a little. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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263343 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2017‑09‑19 | Re: Concern for the list |
The larger question for future-proofing is the declining use of email among those younger than us. Even Facebook is passé. We have no trouble being against the info-scrubbing platforms and with good reason. I look forward to us continuing to value content over platform...sometimes that will mean NOT changing platforms, but true adherence to the value will also sometimes mean TO change platforms. Again, not to Facebook, but it could end up something other than a foreign to youngsters eeemail. We’re not there yet, though. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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263358 | Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> | 2017‑09‑22 | Re: Concern for the list |
Hi Joseph I hope that you do not mind my replying to you via the link to The Porch. I have snipped out the personal stuff. First and most importantly of all, thank you for your kind words. There are a bunch of us that remember not only the posts of a dozen or more years ago, but have also chatted to each other on other woodworking forums. We are like family. Somehow the Porch has lived on, and with antiquated technology … perhaps it is because of the antiquated technology? Perhaps we old farts gained more than we appreciate through loving hand tools? We are still here. So OK - here is the last build of mine, completed a few months ago. I spent the first half of this year burning electrons while re-building the kitchen. This left me three weekends free before the Perth Wood Show, where there is an annual furnitire building competition. I usually enter a piece to support my club members. Three weekends is not much time, and so I chose to build a piece that I had been thinking about for several months. This meant that the design was done, and all I had to do was cut out the pieces and glue it together. It was a little more complicated than that - a sofa table with bowed front and back aprons, the sexiest curved legs (the stuff of dreams), and a hidden drawer (because every piece of furniture must have a hidden drawer). The base is USA Hard Maple (which was used to build the kitchen), and the top is a piece of absolutely stunning West Australian Sheoak. There is a blow-by-blow record of the build on my website, and I will provide the link at the end, but for those wanting to just see the end result … The top: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_h tml_m56ead4c1.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCo mpletion_html_m56ead4c1.jpg From the front … http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_h tml_5056b9fa.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCom pletion_html_5056b9fa.jpg Here is a side elevation of the shaped ends … http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_h tml_m57c67dd8.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCo mpletion_html_m57c67dd8.jpg And the hidden drawer (this is locked with a Quaker lock, and behind it is another hidden drawer) … http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_h tml_64ddae1e.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCom pletion_html_64ddae1e.jpg Scan down this index page .. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/in dex.html">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.html .. .. and you will find the kitchen build as well as the Sofa Table build. Regards from Perth Derek |
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263359 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2017‑09‑22 | Re: Concern for the list |
Derek You pretty much nailed the leg shape. This was undoubtedly the most difficult design feature to finalize and they look great. You might consider importing some of that “lacewood”. Ed Minch |
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263361 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2017‑09‑22 | Re: Concern for the list |
Double Ed's comments--Beautiful design Derek. Claudio |
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263363 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑22 | Re: Concern for the list |
Lovely piece, Derek. Will that beautiful wood you used for the top retain its color over time? I presume that the tenoned divider in the drawer is because the drawer itself must go back for support farther that would be convenient for finding things? Cheers! J Joseph Sullivan |
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263364 | Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> | 2017‑09‑22 | Re: Concern for the list |
Thanks Joe. Here is the table with the top removed. You will see the length - this must rate as one of the world’s longest drawers! It has three compartments. The divider is only the first of two dividers … http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_h tml_m654e8fe9.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCo mpletion_html_m654e8fe9.jpg <http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture /SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_m654e8fe9.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com /Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_m654e8fe9.jpg> The construction is a classic slip design for the drawer bottoms as the drawer sides are only 3/8” thick. This is the front … http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_h tml_m607ae18d.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCo mpletion_html_m607ae18d.jpg <http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture /SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_m607ae18d.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com /Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_m607ae18d.jpg> … and this is the rear (from the underside) … http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_h tml_75137f22.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCom pletion_html_75137f22.jpg <http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/S ofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_75137f22.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Fu rniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_75137f22.jpg> For all the details of construction, including the Quaker lock, go here .. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion.h tml">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion.html< /a> <http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToComplet ion.html">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion. html> Regards from Perth Derel |
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263365 | Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> | 2017‑09‑22 | Re: Concern for the list |
Oops .. Joe you asked about the wood. The Hard Maple is finished in two coats of dewaxed white shellac (Ubeaut), and then received three coats of General Finishes water-based poly, which was hand rubbed. This is to retain the light colour. The top has been finished in Livos Universal Wood Oil. This is a green oil made largely from cold pressed flax seeds. It adds a slight amber sheen to the wood. Over time the Sheoak will darken slightly. Regards from Perth Derek |
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