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262398 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑06‑05 Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
It's a think in the on internet.  It's one of  the many reasons mt to 
trust internet information because generally it's worth what you paid 
for it.

I'm having that issue with the shovel / spade distinction


I grew up thinking a spade was that shape  you see in a deck of cards 
denoting spades. The shape of the blade facilitating the digging  in 
compacted earth and rocks

I figured a shovel was for moving looser materials like putting the dirt 
back in the hole

For reasons  I can't articulate I stumbled onto a web site that had it 
180 degrees opposite.  In disbelieve I started googling around. Seems 
that there are countless websites all repeating the same information 
that the spade is not spade shaped, but rater flat nosed.


Now I turn to the ancient wisdom of the galootery

Is this a case of rampant internet plagiarism and the ignorance of one 
overzealous content writer, or have I been wrong all these years?



One may use a polled axe to drive the tent pegs  or  one may utilize 
one's boot heel to drive the little buggers.
262399 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Cliff wrote:
> It's a think in the on internet.  It's one of  the many reasons mt to trust
internet information because generally it's worth what you paid for it.
>
> I'm having that issue with the shovel / spade distinction
>
>
> I grew up thinking a spade was that shape  you see in a deck of cards denoting
spades. The shape of the blade facilitating the digging  in compacted earth and
rocks
>
> I figured a shovel was for moving looser materials like putting the dirt back
in the hole
>
> For reasons  I can't articulate I stumbled onto a web site that had it 180
degrees opposite.  In disbelieve I started googling around. Seems that there are
countless websites all repeating the same information that the spade is not
spade shaped, but rater flat nosed.
>
>
> Now I turn to the ancient wisdom of the galootery
>
> Is this a case of rampant internet plagiarism and the ignorance of one
overzealous content writer, or have I been wrong all these years?

Spades vary. A lot. Just like billhooks and axes, by both region and nation.

So do shovels.

  BugBear
262400 Tim <tpendleton@g...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
I often look at a dictionary when a quick compare and contrast is in
order.  Dictionary.com sheds some light on the definitions in question.

Tim
Grey, overcast and rainy: Woo-Hoo, summer fun...
262401 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
> On Jun 5, 2017, at 07:17 , Cliff  wrote:
> 
> For reasons  I can't articulate I stumbled onto a web site that had it 180
degrees opposite.  In disbelieve I started googling around. Seems that there are
countless websites all repeating the same information that the spade is not
spade shaped, but rater flat nosed.

I always thought the distinction is whether it holds dirt or not. A
spade is relatively flat-bladed, for turning or chewing up ground. Line
crews used to dig pole holes with a pointed spade and a spoon.

A shovel is for lifting dirt. Hence, we dig fence post holes and ditches
with a round point shovel, and use a square shovel for scooping off of a
flat surface.

Source: my parents (mom used a spade in the garden, dad used a shovel to
dig ditches at work). I've also run into this terminology conflict,
but if you ask for a spade when all I have is a shovel, I'll look at you
like a cow with a bastard calf.

Adam
Port Angeles, WA
262402 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:17 AM, Cliff  wrote:

> I'm having that issue with the shovel / spade distinction


They are all shovels in my corner of the world.  You either want a flat
bladed shovel, or a pointy shovel.

A spade was a derogatory term if you weren't playing cards.

As far as internet plagiarism, I find many websites with the exact same
wording for things like that.  I usually exclude a common phrase when I
want to find different sources.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/ 
is one of the few I trust.  And of course
they let me down here, especially with #2:


Definition of spade
1 :  a digging implement adapted for being pushed into the ground with the
foot
2:  a spade-shaped instrument


Dictionary.com has some of the stupidest definitions, often circular, with
VERY poor examples in some cases, using proper names in place of nouns in
their examples

And urbandictionary.com is only good for looking up words and acronyms your
teenager uses.


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, with a truck full of little goodies to unload
from a busy weekend.
262403 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Obviously words have historic meaning and also legitimate meaning that has
arrived later.

In your case, here's how to know:

1. The playing cards, as you mentioned. 
2. The modified word pairings. Compare how many times you've heard someone put a
"flat" or "straight" modifier on the tool called "spade" vs the times you've
heard "pointed" or "rounded" applied to same.

If you've heard far more of the former, that tells you the normal unmodified
usage refers to the latter.

That's my opinion. 

I think the term usually referred to not simply the head shape but also to the
shorter d-shaped handle.

By now it's used legitimately either way.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
262404 Erik Levin 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Having little of value to add to the discussion, I will, naturally, throw in my
1/12.5 bit...
The usage I was brought up with is:

Spade is a blade that is flatter and pointy for breaking up soil or sod, and
maybe turning it, not for lifting it in quantity. It has no significant raised
edge to impede cutting action

When referring to a specific tool, shovel is squared or pointed at the end and
has a raised edge to make lifting and throwing material easier, but cutting into
tight material is tougher.  The term also encompasses the other here (in the "a
rectangle is a quadrilateral, a square is a rectangle" way)

Scoop is next up in the raising of the edge, and generally has a full box edge
around the perimeter to make lifting, carrying, and controlled throwing of
larger quantities of loose material, like grain, coal, or gravel, easier

This usage was pretty consistent amongst the locals growing up (New England),
and also seems consistent where I am now (NJ). I have used all of the tools
described professionally, as well as non-professionally, in the northeast US.
Digging ditches is not one of my favourite things, nor hand ballasting railroad
right of way, but one does what one must. *** This message was sent from a
convenience email service, and the reply address(es) may not match the
originating address
262405 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
For 11 years starting at age 11 I worked at my uncle’s tree farm in northern
Ohio.  A spade was a subset of shovels and it had a blade that was longer than
wide and a D - handle.

That’s my uncle’s opinion.

Ed Minch
262406 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
This 1926 Ames Shovel, Spade and Scoop catalog makes me realize that
chisels are easy to categorize compared to shovels:
http://stonehill-website.s3.amazonaws.com/files/resources/1926-ames-ca
talog.pdf

Stonehill College has a vast archive related to the Ames Shovel empire:
http://www.stonehill.edu
/offices-services/archives/industrial-collections/ames-family-collection/who-
were-the-ames/

I visited a few years ago to read the correspondence of FL Ames, who for a
while tinkered in woodworking tools, perhaps to diversify his portfolio.
He bought the patent for Cook's patented bits which are all the rage again
and owned chisel and auger makers Douglass Mfg. Co. (which became James
Swan Mfg. Co.).

Brian
262407 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
http://www.sowanddip
ity.com/a-shovel-and-a-spade/ 

The Oxford English Dictionary concurs.  For serious evidence though look
at the logo for Germany's Spaten brand beer. :-) 

Mike in Woodland
262408 Adrian Jones <adrianjones747@c...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
My experience in the UK and US is that a spade is for digging. Always 
has a raised lip for pushing your foot down on it.

Shovel is for moving stuff - snow, coal, etc, and no need for raised lip.

Cheers
262409 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
On 2017-06-05 11:10 AM, Michael Blair wrote:
> > http://www.sowan
ddipity.com/a-shovel-and-a-spade/
>
> The Oxford English Dictionary concurs.  For serious evidence though look
> at the logo for Germany's Spaten brand beer. :-)
>
> Mike in Woodland

My reading of the OED online is that shovels are for shoving or shifting 
materials ( snow for example) , whereas spades are for digging. In other 
words, the name is reflects the function rather than the shape or the 
handle. This is generally the way ww tools are named too - think rip 
saw, mortise chisel, tack hammer etc.

IME, good shovels are rectangular in shape, though a round-ended or 
pointy spoon-like spade can serve for shifting almost as well. When it 
comes to digging, I want a pointy spade to dig a hole, but a 
square-edged one to turn a garden bed.

FWIW
Don

-- 
The harder they come, the bigger they fall - Ry Cooder
262410 Chuck Taylor 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Gentle Galoots,


Alvin Sellens' "Dictionary of American Hand Tools" has these definitions,
accompanied by quite a few illustrations:

Shovel:  A handled tool with a broad hollowed-out blade used to lift or move
loose material.

Spade:  A digging and separating tool capable of cutting action as it is pushed
into the work.

I knew there must be some reason why I acquired all those tool dictionaries. :-)

--
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle
262411 Dan Indrigo <dindrigo@r...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
On 2017-06-05 2:31 PM, Don Schwartz wrote:
> On 2017-06-05 11:10 AM, Michael Blair wrote:
>> >> http://www.sow
anddipity.com/a-shovel-and-a-spade/
>>
>> The Oxford English Dictionary concurs.  For serious evidence though look
>> at the logo for Germany's Spaten brand beer. :-)
>>
>> Mike in Woodland
>
> My reading of the OED online is that shovels are for shoving or 
> shifting materials ( snow for example) , whereas spades are for 
> digging. In other words, the name is reflects the function rather than 
> the shape or the handle. This is generally the way ww tools are named 
> too - think rip saw, mortise chisel, tack hammer etc.
>
> IME, good shovels are rectangular in shape, though a round-ended or 
> pointy spoon-like spade can serve for shifting almost as well. When it 
> comes to digging, I want a pointy spade to dig a hole, but a 
> square-edged one to turn a garden bed.
>
That depends on what it is you are shovelling. If for example you're 
shovelling wet concrete with aggregate any bigger than pea gravel out of 
a wheelbarrow, then you want a rounded or pointy ended shovel. A square 
bladed shovel with high sides would in theory move more material, but it 
would be hard to get it deep into the concrete, and if you did you'd 
have trouble lifting it.
262412 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Oxford English Dictionary: 

Spade: 

"1.  A tool for digging, paring, or cutting ground, turf, etc, now
usually consisting of a flattish rectangular iron blade socketted on a
wooden handle which has a grip or cross-piece at the upper end, the
whole thing being adapted for grasping with both hands while the blade
is pressed into the ground with the foot." 

Shovel: 

"1.  A spade-like implement, consisting of a broad blade of metal or
other material (more or less hollow and often with upturned sides),
attached to a handle and used for raising and removing quantities of
earth, grain, coal or other loose material. (In some dialects the word
is applied to a spade.)" 

I believe that in more common modern parlance the two words have often
become interchangeable, but the distinction between the two tools is of
considerable antiquity, existing in Old English, German, and Frisian. 
Note particularly in the definition of spade, "... a flattish
rectangular iron blade..."  Both words are independent of each other for
a thousand or more years.  Shovelling is related to shovel, but shovel
appears to be earlier, and the relationship like that of hammering to
hammer.  English is fond of turning nouns into verbal forms. 

Mike in Woodland
262413 Al Frampton <oldtoolalf@g...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
On 5 Jun 2017, at 15:17, Cliff  wrote:

> I'm having that issue with the shovel / spade distinction

Fascinating what gets the list moving, innit?

All I can add is the Cornish Shovel. An implement apparently designed
for digging, and yet these days primarily used for one man to lean on
while another does the work. Evolution is a wonderful thing.

Cheers, Alf

Still in Cornwall, UK, with a workshop somewhere if only she could 
find it.
262414 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2017‑06‑05 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
My favorite definition so far.  It brings to mind the story about the
two navvies down in a ditch digging while the supervisor sits under a
tree in the shade.  One says to the other, why is this?!  The other
says, "I'll go ask."  He climbs out of the ditch and asks the
supervisor.  "It's like this," says the super.  The super holds a shovel
upright in front of the tree.  "Hit the shovel with your fist." The
navvy swings to hit the shovel and the super moves the shovel aside so
that the poor fellow drives his fist into the tree.  He returns to the
ditch.  "What did he say?" asks his friend.  "Well, he said it's like
this,"  and not having a tree, holds the shovel in front of his face...
262418 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑06‑06 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
wow   looks like  the only way to settle it is by mortal kombat
  I wonder if Talisa Soto is busy.
262420 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2017‑06‑06 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Brian Welch wrote:
> This 1926 Ames Shovel, Spade and Scoop catalog makes me realize that
> chisels are easy to categorize compared to shovels:
> http://stonehill-website.s3.amazonaws.com/files/resources/1926
-ames-catalog.pdf

I think that puts an end to the "right" versus "wrong" discussion.

It more complicated than that!

(great catalogue)

  BugBear
263283 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2017‑09‑10 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Doubtless already answered, but a spade of whatever shape is a digging and
prying implement, with the strength and geometry to lift and break soil or
whatever.  A shovel is a scooping and moving implement. Hence on our small
horse farm where we have several of each in various shapes, we use spades
for holes and trenches and occasional rock-prying, and shovels for grain,
stall-cleaning, loose dirt and gravel moving, and mixing and lifting small
batches of concrete.  If we lived further north, we'd also have shovels for
snow, whereas in snow weather, spades are only used by me in card games.

J

Joseph Sullivan

 
-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@
s...] On Behalf Of Adam
R. Maxwell
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 10:21 AM
To: Cliff 
Cc: oldtools porch 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism


> On Jun 5, 2017, at 07:17 , Cliff  wrote:
> 
> For reasons  I can't articulate I stumbled onto a web site that had it 180
degrees opposite.  In disbelieve I started googling around. Seems that there
are countless websites all repeating the same information that the spade is
not spade shaped, but rater flat nosed.

I always thought the distinction is whether it holds dirt or not. A spade is
relatively flat-bladed, for turning or chewing up ground. Line crews used to
dig pole holes with a pointed spade and a spoon.

A shovel is for lifting dirt. Hence, we dig fence post holes and ditches
with a round point shovel, and use a square shovel for scooping off of a
flat surface.

Source: my parents (mom used a spade in the garden, dad used a shovel to dig
ditches at work). I've also run into this terminology conflict, but if you
ask for a spade when all I have is a shovel, I'll look at you like a cow
with a bastard calf.

Adam
Port Angeles, WA

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263284 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2017‑09‑10 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Ed:

Yes, but, I have long-handled pointy spades with no D,  as well as short
D-handled sharp shooters and diggers.

J

Joseph Sullivan

 
-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@
s...] On Behalf Of Ed
Minch
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:51 AM
To: Matthew Groves 
Cc: oldtools List 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism

For 11 years starting at age 11 I worked at my uncle's tree farm in northern
Ohio.  A spade was a subset of shovels and it had a blade that was longer
than wide and a D - handle.

That's my uncle's opinion.

Ed Minch




On Jun 5, 2017, at 11:51 AM, Matthew Groves  wrote:

> That's my opinion. 
> 
> I think the term usually referred to not simply the head shape but also to
the shorter d-shaped handle.
> 
> By now it's used legitimately either way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
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OldTools@s...
263285 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑09‑10 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
YMDV

Ed Minch
263288 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑09‑10 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
Just once,  in all these spades,  nibs, squibs, tibs, bibs, the angle of 
a dovetail (& which to start first) and what not; I'd like to find  just 
one inalienable pure  distilled crystalline unassailable  absolute 
truth. Maybe it's all because  of the space aliens and those ruins in 
Peru - and the mice.

What color should the towel be?





  9/10/2017 12:06 PM, Ed Minch wrote:
263326 Gye Greene <gyegreene@g...> 2017‑09‑19 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
I'm late to the game, but one last poke:


From a pre-internet gardening book (Sunset, Western Garden Book, c. 1967,
1973 revision, p. 92:  "Shovels are designed for scooping, lifting,
digging, and mixing."  It seems to treat "spades" as a sub-class of
shovel.  The pointy-nosed "trench spade" (which looks like a WWII-type Army
trenching tool, and is vaguely reminiscent of the suit, in cards), is "for
digging in close quarters". The "spade" (no adjectives or modifiers in the
illustration) illustrated is square-nosed, referred to as a "standard
spade" in the text, and is for "digging and turning soil, [...] digging
trenches and planting holes, and pruning roots.  Some gardeners learn to
use it for weeding (sliding it along parallel to the ground with a slicing
motion) or breaking up soil crust (quick, shallow, closely-spaced vertical
slices)."

They also show a "narrow spade" for ditches, post holes, and etc., and a
"small spade" -- which to me just looks like a small shovel.

It notes that a spade should be sharpened with a file -- but doesn't say
anything about sharpening a shovel.


My inference is that spades are primarily for cutting turf, roots, etc. as
you dig; shovels are for moving the debris.  There's some overlap in tasks
-- but each is optimized for one or the other.

It's apparently a daily task for archaeologists, out on a dig (read this in
some "fieldwork" book; won't be able to find the source).

On that topic:  I found this link by accident --
http://arf.berkeley.edu/then-dig/2011/07
/shovels-regional-diversity-in-one-of-our-most-indispensible-tools/
-- which indicates that some archaeologists sharpen their shovels, also.


--Travis
263327 Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> 2017‑09‑19 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
I think this is the right distinction, for no other reason than it’s the one
I’ve always used. :)

Before they sold out to The Man, Smith & Hawken used to sell an English Garden
Spade. The business end was beefy and I could see why sharpening it with a file
would make a lot of sense. The beefy wooden handle was trapped in two beefy
tangs and fixed with two beefy rivets.

Sadly back then I couldn’t afford the Spade, so for me the S&H catalog was
largely pornographic. But I do sometimes search that auction site for antique
spades and I’m committed to the hunt. I have a couple of crap-axes for grubbing
roots but the beefy and sharpened edge of a spade sure looks like it would tame
the Godawful bull tallow clay that passes for soil in my part of NC.

MPf.
263328 Steve Jones <stjones@k...> 2017‑09‑19 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
GGs;

I just thought spades were used mostly vertically and shovels mostly
horizontally (with concomitantly greater capacity for transporting
material).

Steve in Kokomo
"If I ain't bleedin', I ain't workin'."
263329 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑09‑19 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
It kind of surprises and amuses me that people feel a need to be 
"correct" over something everyone knows, and it hardly matters anyway.

   Now, what I have real trouble with, is volume.
A quick rough count showed me 18 shovels in current readiness for use. I 
have 4 or 5 more candidate heads laying around waiting to see what I 
want to do with them.  I have short D handles and longer T handles as 
well and long straight handles. I have a trenching tool from WW1 and 
several "children's" tools.
     Lately they make some really cute small ones, and I have a 
couple/three of those too.
  One the rare square end variety.

   I have mounted new handles and carved shovel handles from scratch and 
reworked heads into different configurations.
Made shovels into spades and vise versa, if the names are still 
important to you. lol

   I have only one genuine piece of information to add. Maybe you 
already know?
But last winter we got a sudden 3 feet of snow. Ker-plop. Nearly 
everyone was snowed in. I have been in sudden snowfalls before, so I put 
my wittile twuck into 4WD and cut ruts every hour until it stopped. 
Looked like Wagon Train across the prairie, but I could at least get out.

  This didn't help with my walkways to and from the carport, and 
eventually lots of snow got shoveled.
  At my tender young age it was kicking me like an angry little girl 
with a rag doll. I would go hard a good 1/2 hour, then rest up for an 
hour. On like that.
  So during one of the rest periods I was thinking, there has to be 
something better than this. Having a selection of tools I was using a 
10" wide grain scoop on a long handle.
  (oops sorry to introduce a new name, now we have to argue the correct 
use of scoop too? lol)
   But anyway, the job and the tool were kicking my ass, was my point.

  I have always been naturally lazy. If there is an easier way I 
---WILL--- find it.  ha
   I took my shovel (live with it, you know what I meant) down to the 
shop and scraped it smooth as butter with a razor blade scraper followed 
by steel wool.
  Did a good job of it (I couldn't move any more snow anyway).
  I then put 2 coats of paste wax on it.

    Holy Mackerel!!!!!!
  On the next round I was astounded by the reduced effort it took. I 
moved more snow in a shorter period, with less exhaustion, than I would 
have ever believed.
  I'll never shovel snow with an unpolished tool again!!
       yours Scott




-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
263354 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2017‑09‑21 Re: Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism
From: scott grandstaff<mailto:scottg@s...>
Re: [OldTools] Shovel vs spade and internet plagiarism

  I'll never shovel snow with an unpolished tool again!!
       yours Scott

I still find myself shoveling despite having a farm tractor with a blade and a
snow thrower. There are always those bits that are too small or too close to the
bright work to risk crashing a power tool full of snow on them.
I did bend to modern pressure and buy a factory made snow shovel with an
ergonomically bent handle. Works without bending over.
This year I’m going to polish that thing till it shines and then wax poetically
upon it. Or maybe just paste wax after all.

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